how to get 270hp out of an S5 n/a?
08-05-03, 01:19 PM
#28
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the torque is about 100 less than that. ~152.7 (spec sheet) MAX ft lbs torque. yea, i'd say thats underpowered. i cant find a dyno sheet on it, but with 150 being max, i dont expect to be thrown into my seat.
Last edited by casio; 08-05-03 at 01:23 PM.
08-05-03, 01:30 PM
#29
trying to build a racecar
Unless you change your mind about the porting you're only option is higher compression rotors. Look at a rotor, see that cavity on each face? Fill that in completely, so that it's smooth with the rest of the face. Now spend a bunch of money to have a *really* good tuner setup your aftermarket fully programmable ECU (AFC ain't gonna cut it).
Oh, and you have to run race gas all the time, because all pump gas will detonate.
You're fundamentally limiting the power by restricting yourself to a street port. The engine can only make so much power for a given amount of air it brings in. Go run around your block ten times, but you can only breathe through a drinking straw. Let me know how that turns out for you.
Like other people have said, you would be lucky to get 200hp to the back tires.
Good luck
Oh, and you have to run race gas all the time, because all pump gas will detonate.
You're fundamentally limiting the power by restricting yourself to a street port. The engine can only make so much power for a given amount of air it brings in. Go run around your block ten times, but you can only breathe through a drinking straw. Let me know how that turns out for you.
Like other people have said, you would be lucky to get 200hp to the back tires.
Good luck
08-05-03, 01:50 PM
#30
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To jump in about the Ren being underpowered...
The Renesis isn't making 250 hp.. there seems to be some problems with them.. It's a nice engine but they are getting dynoed at 180-185 HP.. so that's about 20 hp missing. Check out the www.rx8club.com forum to hear them complain.
There is speculation that mazda is still having problems getting the 6th ports working right on them.. SCC had this problem when they did a review of the car.. also some people are wondering if the engnie needs to break in more to get that extra HP.. so some are going to re-dyno at around 4K miles to see if it's any better.
For comparison I am probably at right around 135 at the wheels or so based on the fact that Rarest's car is a litttle faster than mine.. but who knows how much of that is the different gearing of the GTUs.. but he dynos around 140 before the true duals so I would give him at least an extra 5 hp now... So a Renesis is putting out about 40-45 more HP than my 1987 FC with bolt ons... and my car is 300 lbs lighter.
The Renesis isn't making 250 hp.. there seems to be some problems with them.. It's a nice engine but they are getting dynoed at 180-185 HP.. so that's about 20 hp missing. Check out the www.rx8club.com forum to hear them complain.
There is speculation that mazda is still having problems getting the 6th ports working right on them.. SCC had this problem when they did a review of the car.. also some people are wondering if the engnie needs to break in more to get that extra HP.. so some are going to re-dyno at around 4K miles to see if it's any better.
For comparison I am probably at right around 135 at the wheels or so based on the fact that Rarest's car is a litttle faster than mine.. but who knows how much of that is the different gearing of the GTUs.. but he dynos around 140 before the true duals so I would give him at least an extra 5 hp now... So a Renesis is putting out about 40-45 more HP than my 1987 FC with bolt ons... and my car is 300 lbs lighter.
08-05-03, 02:13 PM
#31
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Originally posted by Novacaine
...you can put a huge vacuum under your car to create ridiculous downforce on the top to hold it to the road I think they used to do this in F1 or some **** till they outlawed it
...you can put a huge vacuum under your car to create ridiculous downforce on the top to hold it to the road I think they used to do this in F1 or some **** till they outlawed it
Sorry if I'm
08-05-03, 02:20 PM
#32
Rotary Enthusiast
Hummm.
First off your wallet needs to know no bounds.
Then start with a Turbo II block. The 6-port block just isn't going to cut it. Going with a 4-port is going to kill the low end, but you're shooting for a peak number anyway.
Inside you need to add S5 NA (Or better yet, Renesis) rotors. You'll have to lighten the rotors as much as possible and get the rotating assembly balanced for about 10,000 RPM.
Then port the hell out of the intake and exhaust ports.
Light weight flywheel is a must.
Under drive pulleys
No power steering, no A/C pump.
Ported intake manifolds. You may even want to consider running FD intake since you'll have a 4-port motor anyway.
Ported throttle body.
550cc injectors minimum. Probably going to need 720s in the secondaries for fuel requirements.
Upgraded fuel pump
Electric Fan
Stand alone ECU. I'd recommend Microtech.
True dual exahust.
With ALL THIS, you might break 220-230 at the wheels at 10,000 RPM. (Or very close to 270 FWHP) That's assuming the motor is tight as hell. When it's all done you'll have an FB that screems on the top end but will be a complete DOG below 5000 RPM. In other words, probably wouldn't be street driveable.
I'd probably put a 4.8 gear in the rear end just to help out with the massive loss of low end power.
First off your wallet needs to know no bounds.
Then start with a Turbo II block. The 6-port block just isn't going to cut it. Going with a 4-port is going to kill the low end, but you're shooting for a peak number anyway.
Inside you need to add S5 NA (Or better yet, Renesis) rotors. You'll have to lighten the rotors as much as possible and get the rotating assembly balanced for about 10,000 RPM.
Then port the hell out of the intake and exhaust ports.
Light weight flywheel is a must.
Under drive pulleys
No power steering, no A/C pump.
Ported intake manifolds. You may even want to consider running FD intake since you'll have a 4-port motor anyway.
Ported throttle body.
550cc injectors minimum. Probably going to need 720s in the secondaries for fuel requirements.
Upgraded fuel pump
Electric Fan
Stand alone ECU. I'd recommend Microtech.
True dual exahust.
With ALL THIS, you might break 220-230 at the wheels at 10,000 RPM. (Or very close to 270 FWHP) That's assuming the motor is tight as hell. When it's all done you'll have an FB that screems on the top end but will be a complete DOG below 5000 RPM. In other words, probably wouldn't be street driveable.
I'd probably put a 4.8 gear in the rear end just to help out with the massive loss of low end power.
Last edited by wozzoom; 08-05-03 at 02:26 PM.
08-05-03, 02:29 PM
#35
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally posted by ilike2eatricers
I believe a single exhaust will yield a higher peak hp number while true duals will give a broader power band.
I believe a single exhaust will yield a higher peak hp number while true duals will give a broader power band.
08-05-03, 02:39 PM
#36
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bridge port!
headers
go carburated
full exhaust system
higher compression rotors
racing beat apex seals
T2 tranny to handle the power
there's more but i'm lazy, maybe this will help a little
headers
go carburated
full exhaust system
higher compression rotors
racing beat apex seals
T2 tranny to handle the power
there's more but i'm lazy, maybe this will help a little
08-05-03, 02:40 PM
#37
Nothing to see here.
Originally posted by jsotelo
To jump in about the Ren being underpowered...
The Renesis isn't making 250 hp.. there seems to be some problems with them.. It's a nice engine but they are getting dynoed at 180-185 HP.. so that's about 20 hp missing. Check out the www.rx8club.com forum to hear them complain.
There is speculation that mazda is still having problems getting the 6th ports working right on them.. SCC had this problem when they did a review of the car.. also some people are wondering if the engnie needs to break in more to get that extra HP.. so some are going to re-dyno at around 4K miles to see if it's any better.
To jump in about the Ren being underpowered...
The Renesis isn't making 250 hp.. there seems to be some problems with them.. It's a nice engine but they are getting dynoed at 180-185 HP.. so that's about 20 hp missing. Check out the www.rx8club.com forum to hear them complain.
There is speculation that mazda is still having problems getting the 6th ports working right on them.. SCC had this problem when they did a review of the car.. also some people are wondering if the engnie needs to break in more to get that extra HP.. so some are going to re-dyno at around 4K miles to see if it's any better.
08-05-03, 02:43 PM
#39
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I dont believe you can get more than 200 HP out of even a generous streetport. And even then you would be running a perfectly tuned exhaust and a good carbureation setup, probably on a 4 port motor w/high compression lightweight rotors, high RPM limit, etc. Step up to a bridge port, and then you might be talking.
08-05-03, 02:46 PM
#40
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Originally posted by NoPistons4Chris
bridge port!
headers
go carburated
full exhaust system
higher compression rotors
racing beat apex seals
T2 tranny to handle the power
bridge port!
headers
go carburated
full exhaust system
higher compression rotors
racing beat apex seals
T2 tranny to handle the power
headers - last i checked, there's only one !
carburated - want to explain this ?
exhaust - obviously
high comp rotors - from? RX8? i'd stick with 91 rotors unless he's loaded
racing beat apex seals - any particular reason?
T2 tranny - whole T2 drivetrain. tranny to subframe
i'm mainly curious to why you say to carb it. carbs tend to have shorter runners which are better for high revving power, but i don't see it as a wise choice. usually its a cop-out attempt to dump fuel into an engine and kill mpg.
casio
08-05-03, 02:56 PM
#41
I'll have a Coke!
Originally posted by bingoboy
3 rotor modded NA, 300 hp, 300 lbs of torque.
3 rotor modded NA, 300 hp, 300 lbs of torque.
08-05-03, 03:16 PM
#42
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08-05-03, 03:31 PM
#43
We come with the Hardcore
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Originally posted by rotarypwrd
...what part of nothing beyond a streetport didn't you understand???
...what part of nothing beyond a streetport didn't you understand???
08-05-03, 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by Zach McAfee
If I didn't take Aerodynamics of Ground Vehicles last sememster I would have said you're full of ****, but in the 60's or 70's there was a car (not F1) that had large fans creating high pressure above the car and low pressure below the car. Crazy stuff.
Sorry if I'm
If I didn't take Aerodynamics of Ground Vehicles last sememster I would have said you're full of ****, but in the 60's or 70's there was a car (not F1) that had large fans creating high pressure above the car and low pressure below the car. Crazy stuff.
Sorry if I'm
Oh and pray to God those fans don't fail during a turn or you are more than screwed
Last edited by Novacaine; 08-05-03 at 03:50 PM.
08-05-03, 03:46 PM
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go to college get an mechanical engineering degree specializing in automotive and do some masters or PHD work on the rotary engine and design one that meets your goals and pay out the *** for a one off (so you can have your mytical engine)and then market it to mazda and hope to make some money back or become very rich
problem solved
problem solved
08-05-03, 04:38 PM
#46
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Originally posted by Novacaine
yeah I knew it had been done some where I guess not on the track or whatever but I am pretty sure it is illegal to do for racing but who needs 270 rwhp when you don't have to slow down at all for turns cause you stick the the road like glue. It was just a weird way around his problem
Oh and pray to God those fans don't fail during a turn or you are more than screwed
yeah I knew it had been done some where I guess not on the track or whatever but I am pretty sure it is illegal to do for racing but who needs 270 rwhp when you don't have to slow down at all for turns cause you stick the the road like glue. It was just a weird way around his problem
Oh and pray to God those fans don't fail during a turn or you are more than screwed
08-05-03, 04:52 PM
#47
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oh and rocks and other junk skipping up into the fan might also cause your death from the fan blades flying into the cabin
the belt driven thing is a cool idea sounds like this comes from monster garage though. you get a working thing for this with bolt on capabilities and reasonably safe so you don't get lawsuits to high heaven and you could make some money from all those people out there who ever watched intial D
the belt driven thing is a cool idea sounds like this comes from monster garage though. you get a working thing for this with bolt on capabilities and reasonably safe so you don't get lawsuits to high heaven and you could make some money from all those people out there who ever watched intial D
08-05-03, 05:13 PM
#48
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ok well here's what i think, with conventional NA engines...when they really up the hp, they make the engine breathe ALOT better, and they use forged stuff instead of cast to up the RPMs way high along with shorter stroke and larger bore and all that.
ok well you can do monster porting (i don't think there's any way street port will get you 270). so lets say you get some monster port that can actually use a significant rpm increase...then what do you need? cant bore the engine hehe, so you need hardened internal engine componets which will cost you an arm and a leg from racing beat etc, or maybe cryo treated parts to harden them (take note i don't think anyone sells a hardened E-shaft and it will flex under higher rpms eventually). you need to do some kind of clearancing work for them too. so now you've got an NA with a monster port (periphial?) that revs to what, 10k? and peaks at 9k? fun fun. i think the 3 rotor might be cheaper lol.
ok well you can do monster porting (i don't think there's any way street port will get you 270). so lets say you get some monster port that can actually use a significant rpm increase...then what do you need? cant bore the engine hehe, so you need hardened internal engine componets which will cost you an arm and a leg from racing beat etc, or maybe cryo treated parts to harden them (take note i don't think anyone sells a hardened E-shaft and it will flex under higher rpms eventually). you need to do some kind of clearancing work for them too. so now you've got an NA with a monster port (periphial?) that revs to what, 10k? and peaks at 9k? fun fun. i think the 3 rotor might be cheaper lol.
Last edited by bingoboy; 08-05-03 at 05:19 PM.
08-05-03, 05:15 PM
#49
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Actually it should be possible. With a bit of porting and a wrap around DCOE manifold there are dyno plots to show 226HP at the flywheel at 8200RPM, with a peak torque of 162lbft
Now a wrap around costs a good few HP. Go for a better manifold, preferably custom, ceramic seals (worth a few more HP as well as more RPM), a 2 part eccentric, lightened rotors and tune for 9000RPM operation. Dave Lemon has a non-bridged 6-port that revs to 10K.
It won't be cheap, and may not be very streetable (at least in a heavy FC) , but I can certainly believe 250HP is readily possible.
Now a wrap around costs a good few HP. Go for a better manifold, preferably custom, ceramic seals (worth a few more HP as well as more RPM), a 2 part eccentric, lightened rotors and tune for 9000RPM operation. Dave Lemon has a non-bridged 6-port that revs to 10K.
It won't be cheap, and may not be very streetable (at least in a heavy FC) , but I can certainly believe 250HP is readily possible.
08-05-03, 08:55 PM
#50
That is my goal as well
This is what I am working on for my 87 n/a.
Jacobs Propac
Large Street port, thinking about going even bigger
Extrude Hone the intake
Larger Throttle bodies
standalone engine managment, I think Tec 3
lager injectors, possibly two more also
super light weight S5 rotors
still researching what housings to use
race bearings and things that last
2 peice 2 mm apex seals
non legal header, 2.5" mandrel into an Ultra-Flo
light fly
cryo treat everything
remove accessories, ram air, underdrive, pinapple, e-fan... the usuall
ON the intake. I was thinking of using the S6 intake so the air doesn't change direction so often. Still looking into it.
And last week I discovered the father of a good friend of mine owns a machine shop. Apparently this guy has designed and built from scratch an entire V8. That is block, crank, rods, pistons, intake, cam, everything but managment. all from billet aluminum. From scratch (for emphisis)
So I was going to talk to him about 10:1 or 10.5:1 rotors. I have no idea what will happen if I use these, or even if he will do it. But I am going to try. Even without these. I think these mods will hit close to the mark. the S5 made like 185 HP I think. a 20% increase gets you over 215 HP These guys saying you can't get over 200 are insane. 15 HP is nothing. 85 Hp is something though. 270 horsies are going to be tough to get. But my thinking is higher RPM. I want readline to be 10,000. That is the limit of most clutches. after that they tend to blow apart and take legs and hands with them. So I'm thinking I will loose most of my low end because I am moving my power band so far up in the RPM range. This is why I want air to flow so freely, so I don't chock out until 10k. With this much power we will also need a tranny that can handle it. I found one that is 8 grand made by..... I forget. It can handle ungodly amounts of power though. I can find it if you are interested. They make cheaper ones too.
If you come up with any break throughs let me know. after this project I want to go 10 seconds in the quarter with an n/a. But I am not even going to to attempt it if I can't get over 250 HP from this car.
sorry if I misspelled anything. I am a little dyslexic
Jacobs Propac
Large Street port, thinking about going even bigger
Extrude Hone the intake
Larger Throttle bodies
standalone engine managment, I think Tec 3
lager injectors, possibly two more also
super light weight S5 rotors
still researching what housings to use
race bearings and things that last
2 peice 2 mm apex seals
non legal header, 2.5" mandrel into an Ultra-Flo
light fly
cryo treat everything
remove accessories, ram air, underdrive, pinapple, e-fan... the usuall
ON the intake. I was thinking of using the S6 intake so the air doesn't change direction so often. Still looking into it.
And last week I discovered the father of a good friend of mine owns a machine shop. Apparently this guy has designed and built from scratch an entire V8. That is block, crank, rods, pistons, intake, cam, everything but managment. all from billet aluminum. From scratch (for emphisis)
So I was going to talk to him about 10:1 or 10.5:1 rotors. I have no idea what will happen if I use these, or even if he will do it. But I am going to try. Even without these. I think these mods will hit close to the mark. the S5 made like 185 HP I think. a 20% increase gets you over 215 HP These guys saying you can't get over 200 are insane. 15 HP is nothing. 85 Hp is something though. 270 horsies are going to be tough to get. But my thinking is higher RPM. I want readline to be 10,000. That is the limit of most clutches. after that they tend to blow apart and take legs and hands with them. So I'm thinking I will loose most of my low end because I am moving my power band so far up in the RPM range. This is why I want air to flow so freely, so I don't chock out until 10k. With this much power we will also need a tranny that can handle it. I found one that is 8 grand made by..... I forget. It can handle ungodly amounts of power though. I can find it if you are interested. They make cheaper ones too.
If you come up with any break throughs let me know. after this project I want to go 10 seconds in the quarter with an n/a. But I am not even going to to attempt it if I can't get over 250 HP from this car.
sorry if I misspelled anything. I am a little dyslexic
Last edited by tweaked; 08-05-03 at 08:58 PM.