How do Mazda Dealers Unflood your car?
01-25-05, 10:48 AM
#26
Its so hot here!!!!1
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The way I unflodd my engine is, on the drivers side speaker tower there is the plug for the fuel pump, pull it and crank ur engine, it will start up and burn all the excess fuel out, plug it bag in start again, as soon as you first hear it catchlike it wants to start up, pump the gas, works for me almost 100% of the time. Plus it doesnt kill ur battery like pulling the egi fuse does.
01-25-05, 12:33 PM
#28
Sometimes I miss my RX-7s
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If your car is flooding all the time, it will probably continue to do so. A lot of older cars have leaky injectors, esp when the injectors sit on top of a nice warm rotary. Your car maintains fuel pressure when its sitting so that theoretically it'll start right up as soon as you turn it over when you get in. The fuel pressure is the same thing that allows gas to get into your engine when the car is just sitting without any power running to the fuel pump.
A much better way around this than a ghetto *** fuel cut off swith or getting out and pulling the fuse is to just eliminate the fuel pressure after the fuel pump is turned off. I've never understood the whole fuel cuttoff switch thing, unless you have it as some type of hidden security switch. Every time the car floods and you flip the switch, purge the gas from your engine, foul your plugs/oil/etc, and fill a parking lot with smoke, you make yourself and your rx7 look like it belongs in a trailer park... Sorry had to get that off my chest.
As an alternative, just:
1. Do the little trick where you pull the fuil pump fuse and purge the fuel system of pressure.
2. Get in the back of your car with a phillips screwdriver, needle nose pliars, and some really small wrenches or sockets.
3. Pull up your carpet to expose the fuel pump access cover.
4. Remove the cover.
5. Remove the lines going into the fuel pump. You'll need the needle nose or a wrench for the clamps. (Be careful, fuel can get all over...)
6. Carefully pull out the fuel pump assembly. You don't want to bend the little floating assembly that measures your fuel level...
7. Disconnect the positive and negative wires to the pump. Here are the pesky little nuts (don't know the size off the top of my head, they're just small). They are different sizes, so you won't be able to mess up putting things back together.
8. Remove the clamps holding the piece of rubber hose to the actual pump and move the hose up until the pump is free.
9. Now look into the pump, you'll see what looks like a little plastic basket. It acts as a valve to maintain fuel pressure when the pump isn't pumping.
10. Rip the little basket out with your needle nose pliars like it's the cause of all your rx-7 woes...
11. Put everything back together.
You might notice that it may take one more second to start the car, because it has to build up the fule pressure each time you start it. If your car has been flooding, a lot of that pressure has already been bleeding off as fuel drips into your engine, so you may not even be able to notice a thing. The best part is no one else will ever notice, and you're car shouldn't flood ever again leaving you under the hood acting like the rotary obsessed wrench monkey that you are while on an important date, etc... Do you like apples??? How do you like them apples?
If anyone can tell me why this is a worse solution than the ghetto *** fuel cut switches that run rampant through Rx-7 owners, I'd love to hear it. I'd also love for someone else to give this a try and confirm how much better it is... I switched from rx-7's to vettes a while back and have a bunch of parts, including some pumps, so I'd be more than happy to let someone give that a try if they're in Dallas and don't want to risk messing up their pump, or I'd be more than happy to sell you my modified pump, with a promise of a refund if their is an issue...
Wow that was long... I don't check my pm's anymore and just lurk on here every now and then, so e-mail me...
Kevin
kspurr1@yahoo.com
'95 Admiral Blue Corvette Coupe
'99 Pewter Corvette Convertible
'87 Rx7 TII -sold-
'88 Rx7 Vert -sold-
'88 Rx7 TII Vert -sold-
A much better way around this than a ghetto *** fuel cut off swith or getting out and pulling the fuse is to just eliminate the fuel pressure after the fuel pump is turned off. I've never understood the whole fuel cuttoff switch thing, unless you have it as some type of hidden security switch. Every time the car floods and you flip the switch, purge the gas from your engine, foul your plugs/oil/etc, and fill a parking lot with smoke, you make yourself and your rx7 look like it belongs in a trailer park... Sorry had to get that off my chest.
As an alternative, just:
1. Do the little trick where you pull the fuil pump fuse and purge the fuel system of pressure.
2. Get in the back of your car with a phillips screwdriver, needle nose pliars, and some really small wrenches or sockets.
3. Pull up your carpet to expose the fuel pump access cover.
4. Remove the cover.
5. Remove the lines going into the fuel pump. You'll need the needle nose or a wrench for the clamps. (Be careful, fuel can get all over...)
6. Carefully pull out the fuel pump assembly. You don't want to bend the little floating assembly that measures your fuel level...
7. Disconnect the positive and negative wires to the pump. Here are the pesky little nuts (don't know the size off the top of my head, they're just small). They are different sizes, so you won't be able to mess up putting things back together.
8. Remove the clamps holding the piece of rubber hose to the actual pump and move the hose up until the pump is free.
9. Now look into the pump, you'll see what looks like a little plastic basket. It acts as a valve to maintain fuel pressure when the pump isn't pumping.
10. Rip the little basket out with your needle nose pliars like it's the cause of all your rx-7 woes...
11. Put everything back together.
You might notice that it may take one more second to start the car, because it has to build up the fule pressure each time you start it. If your car has been flooding, a lot of that pressure has already been bleeding off as fuel drips into your engine, so you may not even be able to notice a thing. The best part is no one else will ever notice, and you're car shouldn't flood ever again leaving you under the hood acting like the rotary obsessed wrench monkey that you are while on an important date, etc... Do you like apples??? How do you like them apples?
If anyone can tell me why this is a worse solution than the ghetto *** fuel cut switches that run rampant through Rx-7 owners, I'd love to hear it. I'd also love for someone else to give this a try and confirm how much better it is... I switched from rx-7's to vettes a while back and have a bunch of parts, including some pumps, so I'd be more than happy to let someone give that a try if they're in Dallas and don't want to risk messing up their pump, or I'd be more than happy to sell you my modified pump, with a promise of a refund if their is an issue...
Wow that was long... I don't check my pm's anymore and just lurk on here every now and then, so e-mail me...
Kevin
kspurr1@yahoo.com
'95 Admiral Blue Corvette Coupe
'99 Pewter Corvette Convertible
'87 Rx7 TII -sold-
'88 Rx7 Vert -sold-
'88 Rx7 TII Vert -sold-
01-25-05, 01:30 PM
#29
The above a good solution, but the following can be had from Mazdatrix. Years ago I had a carb'd engine that would flood after sitting. Whitney made a similar contraption that I installed before and after the mechanical fuel pump and connected the two. Never flooded again.
INJECTION FUEL PRESSURE BLEED-OFF (86-92)
We continue getting a number of cars (86-92) in our service department (and many phone calls) with leaking fuel injectors. The main symptom is flooding after the car has been sitting for a few hours. It can manifest itself after running for as little as a minute or two! Basically, if you try to re-start the car anywhere from a few minutes, to a few hours later, it just will NOT start. The "no-start" is usually OK after sitting for the night.
The injection systems hold residual fuel pressure for many hours after the engine is shut off, and if an injector is leaking, it will simply drip fuel in the engine until the pressure has stopped. This part we have assembled should be considered a temporary fix, or a diagnostic tool only, because it is not going to fix the root problem. However, it can get the car back on the road for a lot fewer $$ than new injectors. Plus - it is hard to find out which injector(s) are the problem - you have four!
It is installed in-line where the fuel supply and return lines attach to the engine, below and forward of the oil filter. There is a very small jet inside the "H" that allows the residual pressure to bleed back to the tank, thereby preventing the pressurized dripping past an injector.
----- The Kit includes the fuel lines and clamps needed, plus installation instructions. -----
Part Number 13-MZ-BLEED
INJECTION FUEL PRESSURE BLEED-OFF (86-92)
We continue getting a number of cars (86-92) in our service department (and many phone calls) with leaking fuel injectors. The main symptom is flooding after the car has been sitting for a few hours. It can manifest itself after running for as little as a minute or two! Basically, if you try to re-start the car anywhere from a few minutes, to a few hours later, it just will NOT start. The "no-start" is usually OK after sitting for the night.
The injection systems hold residual fuel pressure for many hours after the engine is shut off, and if an injector is leaking, it will simply drip fuel in the engine until the pressure has stopped. This part we have assembled should be considered a temporary fix, or a diagnostic tool only, because it is not going to fix the root problem. However, it can get the car back on the road for a lot fewer $$ than new injectors. Plus - it is hard to find out which injector(s) are the problem - you have four!
It is installed in-line where the fuel supply and return lines attach to the engine, below and forward of the oil filter. There is a very small jet inside the "H" that allows the residual pressure to bleed back to the tank, thereby preventing the pressurized dripping past an injector.
----- The Kit includes the fuel lines and clamps needed, plus installation instructions. -----
Part Number 13-MZ-BLEED
01-25-05, 02:05 PM
#30
My beef with these theories are as follows:
1) why do new or rebuilt rotaries rarely flood, while old ones flood consistently? A: Because new rotaries have much better compression than older ones...compression is the underlying biggest factor in flooding.
2) why can you have your injectors cleaned to perfection yet still have a flooding problem? Because, the injectors are usually not the root problem. These same ND style injectors are used on every import car from about 85 up...but you don't see them flooding do you? Thats because piston engines maintain compression longer with mileage, and build it faster with cranking, than do rotaries.
3) how does that H bleed valve thing maintain proper fuel pressure WHILE RUNNING? We all know that fuel delivery is a big issue with rotaries, and it seems to me you're just giving some pressure a vent to escape, never reaching the engine, and reducing overall delivery. This is a recipe for disaster.
1) why do new or rebuilt rotaries rarely flood, while old ones flood consistently? A: Because new rotaries have much better compression than older ones...compression is the underlying biggest factor in flooding.
2) why can you have your injectors cleaned to perfection yet still have a flooding problem? Because, the injectors are usually not the root problem. These same ND style injectors are used on every import car from about 85 up...but you don't see them flooding do you? Thats because piston engines maintain compression longer with mileage, and build it faster with cranking, than do rotaries.
3) how does that H bleed valve thing maintain proper fuel pressure WHILE RUNNING? We all know that fuel delivery is a big issue with rotaries, and it seems to me you're just giving some pressure a vent to escape, never reaching the engine, and reducing overall delivery. This is a recipe for disaster.
01-25-05, 02:13 PM
#31
heh, ya beat me to it...
mazda probably doesn't bother unflooding it, they should be diagnosing why it flooded in the first place. usually the cause of flooding is slightly low compression in which they will sell you a rebuild or if it is the injectors they will sell you new injectors.
most rotary owners just choose to live with the flooding characteristics that come with their cars rather than opting for the more costly rebuild when the engine still runs good and strong but may flood now and then.
mazda probably doesn't bother unflooding it, they should be diagnosing why it flooded in the first place. usually the cause of flooding is slightly low compression in which they will sell you a rebuild or if it is the injectors they will sell you new injectors.
most rotary owners just choose to live with the flooding characteristics that come with their cars rather than opting for the more costly rebuild when the engine still runs good and strong but may flood now and then.
01-25-05, 03:16 PM
#32
Kevin:
The unit I had installed on the carb engine was restricted. Meaning it only had an opening slightly larger than a needle. Not enough to allow fuel to be pumped back to the tank and have the engine run lean, but just enough to allow the expanded fuel to return. I don't know how the Mazdatriz "H" is manufactured. Never saw one, and never had a flooding problem since i've owned RX7's since 1984.
I did want to add, not to start a debate as I know this was discussed a few weeks ago, and you've done a great deal of testing, but the RX8 has severe flooding problems since day one, and I do not believe the injectors are causing these problems either, nor a tired engine as they are new. They flash the computer and from what I have seen, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Computer logic?
The unit I had installed on the carb engine was restricted. Meaning it only had an opening slightly larger than a needle. Not enough to allow fuel to be pumped back to the tank and have the engine run lean, but just enough to allow the expanded fuel to return. I don't know how the Mazdatriz "H" is manufactured. Never saw one, and never had a flooding problem since i've owned RX7's since 1984.
I did want to add, not to start a debate as I know this was discussed a few weeks ago, and you've done a great deal of testing, but the RX8 has severe flooding problems since day one, and I do not believe the injectors are causing these problems either, nor a tired engine as they are new. They flash the computer and from what I have seen, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Computer logic?
Last edited by Turbonut; 01-25-05 at 03:21 PM.
01-25-05, 03:24 PM
#33
Sometimes I miss my RX-7s
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Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
My beef with these theories are as follows:
1) why do new or rebuilt rotaries rarely flood, while old ones flood consistently? A: Because new rotaries have much better compression than older ones...compression is the underlying biggest factor in flooding.
2) why can you have your injectors cleaned to perfection yet still have a flooding problem? Because, the injectors are usually not the root problem. These same ND style injectors are used on every import car from about 85 up...but you don't see them flooding do you? Thats because piston engines maintain compression longer with mileage, and build it faster with cranking, than do rotaries.
3) how does that H bleed valve thing maintain proper fuel pressure WHILE RUNNING? We all know that fuel delivery is a big issue with rotaries, and it seems to me you're just giving some pressure a vent to escape, never reaching the engine, and reducing overall delivery. This is a recipe for disaster.
1) why do new or rebuilt rotaries rarely flood, while old ones flood consistently? A: Because new rotaries have much better compression than older ones...compression is the underlying biggest factor in flooding.
2) why can you have your injectors cleaned to perfection yet still have a flooding problem? Because, the injectors are usually not the root problem. These same ND style injectors are used on every import car from about 85 up...but you don't see them flooding do you? Thats because piston engines maintain compression longer with mileage, and build it faster with cranking, than do rotaries.
3) how does that H bleed valve thing maintain proper fuel pressure WHILE RUNNING? We all know that fuel delivery is a big issue with rotaries, and it seems to me you're just giving some pressure a vent to escape, never reaching the engine, and reducing overall delivery. This is a recipe for disaster.
That does seem reasonable. I know I did the fuel pump trick to a car and didn't actually end up losing compression for 3 more years, but the engine could have just been slowly on its way out. The fuel pump solution was quick and easy. I never went so far as to check for pressure drop on the fuel system after the car was shut off to see exactly how much fuel was dripping into my engine. It probably would have been a decent test to do. Realistically, leaking fuel injectors would only serve to compound a compression problem by fuel washing the rotor housings. If fuel is cleaning the oil off of the housings, you're not going to get compression very easily. It would also make sense that the fuel wash issue would be made worse when the engine has poor compression, because the fuel that had leaked into the top of the engine would flow more freely past the apex seal and down the housing cleaning the oil off of the walls along the way.
When you have your injectors sonically cleaned or whatever, I would hope that they would do some type of leak test. I'm not sure if they could have acceptable flow characteristics while still leaking. They probably rebuild them and use better viton tips and seals, etc anyway.
I really don't know enough about it to make an informed assumption, but would it make sense that older cars with worn/dirty oil injection systems (omp's) could also have more issues like this? It always seemed like it took a while to get to where I saw the oil flowing in my s4.
Kevin
kspurr1@yahoo.com
'95 Admiral Blue Corvette Coupe
'99 Pewter Corvette Convertible
'87 Rx7 TII -sold-
'88 Rx7 Vert -sold-
'88 Rx7 TII Vert -sold-
