NZConvertible

This should be good. Please share this documentation with us. I'm assuming airflow and temperature readings were taken under various conditions and all other sources of heat and possible causes of misfiring and knocking were eliminated first. Should be interesting reading. And explain what "tabulated flow" is coz that's a new one on me.

Right, so we're clear that you were wrong when you said "there is no outlet path". If you meant "restricted outlet path" you should've said that. And look closer, it's clearly a lot more than an inch.

Some air will, yes. The radiator (which you've completely ignored so far) will provide a similar amount of resistance and that obviously works okay or the engine would be overheating. The statement "air follows the path of least resistance" doesn't mean all air follows that path.

See this is the kind of statement that makes me think you don't have enough understanding of fluid dynamics to be making this argument. This stuff is nowhere near as simple as you seem to think it is. The fact that the intercooler is cooling the air proves that your narrow thinking is incorrect. Obviously sealing up any paths that air can use to bypass the cooling cores will push more air them and improve their efficiency, but your assumption than no air is passing through the IC is wrong.

And since he's already said the project isn't finished and ducting is to come, I don't see why you're dishing out so much critisism. Save it until he's done.

A what?

ddub

I'm posting this for Iceblue because his internet is screwed or something, not sure. He said he can't get pages to load and he can't post.

So yah, this is Iceblue, I have no opinion, leave me out of it








ahh always got to be so negative and doubting don’t we.
"tabulated flow" was a M$ spell check error and over site for turbulated or past tens turbulence.

According to the PCM scan and codes pulled from the check engine light we found some things.

1 was random misfiring on all cylinders yes Mazda computer says cylinders not rotors but they clearly mean all faces or sequence of ignition. The cause is turbulence. Another thing coming up was random reading variations from the MAF meaning high variances of air volume and temperatures. Man that’s a lot of crap from turbulence shees. Unfortunately the computer does not tell you what temps and volume readings were seen for the PCM only stores code values and not data.

Next a TSP release from Mazda, several weeks after we have found this stated that. “We have found many aftermarket air filters and intake systems to cause turbulence in the intake system causing misfires. If similar problems are occurring that the factory intake system and filter should be placed back on the car” The Mazda tech and I performed several tests with several after market filters I personally had around the house. The tests all resulted in random misfires. When we place the factory unit on check engine codes and misfires were unattainable.

Second my “argument to Ted” about turbulence being an issue if you read it again was clearly not an argument. It stated that turbulence also creates heat. It was never implied it was going to be a significant amount in a turbo charged IC motor in the IC. It was also stated for educational purposes a paragraphed equation of what would have to happen to become efficient and overcome. Clearly an IC is well beyond this and efficient.

No argument hear, you clearly know what I was implying. Under these terms my statement was incorrect.

To me this sounds like a poorly stated thought geared towards attack “weather you mean it that way or not”

On what basis do you consider I have completely ignored?

The car moves forward does it not? In the front of the car there is not a big rectangular box that would scoop air in a forward momentum, is there not? Now is there not a big giant squarish figured called a radiator right smack in the direct path of forward momentum air? So if we have a cooler right in the direction of forward momentum air it would pass straight on through its cooling fins. And yes some of it was resist and bounce of the aluminum fins causing a turbulated atmosphere. Thus relying on forward momentum air to force it back through the holes.

Now as clearly demonstrated by me and many users like Jrat and Spic Racer, With a modified application where heat build up is more rapid that over heating and high temp spikes were recorded and an inability to bring the cooling system back down to operating temps. With the aid of ducting and sealant and only sealant from JRat and I that we were able to return the cooling system to appropriate operating temperatures.

This would only mean that a large amount of air is taking open gaps and paths in the engine bay around the RAD and not passing through it. With the aid of sealing these gaps the air has no choice but to pass through the RAD as the cooler is now the path of least resistance.

True if air came in a 10ft wide tunnel with a 2in hole in far left side and a 3ft wide hole in the far right side, a volume of air probably 2in worth would flow through the 2in hole and the same thing in a 3ft volume into the 3 foot hole. While the rest of the air bounces off the wall surrounding these holes and is then projected from the forward momentum air coming in back in the direction of the holes. Does this mean the same volume of air passes through these holes again? No but a large quantity will.

Again you are taking my liberal use of words and implying them to a science instead of a generalization of world experience and attacking me with them. I was not trying to give a seminar nor do I think I know enough to give one on his setup or fluid dynamics or air.

I was only trying to touch on the subject and imply that very very little air, IMO not enough to be efficient over the TMIC is passing through his current setup. Yes just the IC alone due to heat dissipation properties of aluminum helps cool the intake charge.

Air flow is coming in at a forward momentum from the front valance port passing directly forward into the RAD. Without ducting air in a forward momentum, air does not move upwards. With no upwards air flow no air could pass through his IC. In addition cooler fins are restrictive and will have a hard time flowing a decent amount of air past them without a type of force, vacuum, or heat. With his large gabs between the RAD and the IC air is highly more likely to take this path over passing through the IC fins. So as I see it the only prospect for air passing through the IC at its current time of development is after the air has hit restrictions from the RAD and is turbulated into limbo filling the void space between the valance duct and the RAD. With the current forward momentum air being forced into the channel it is possible for the turbulated air to be forced upwards and into and passing of the IC core. Or nothing more then air being air passing through the IC fins without force, I hardly consider that of the prospect for our discussion.

I am sorry you feel this way I was not criticizing him at all in anyway. I was pointing out the matter and disagreeing with his statement of how efficient and functional he felt his VMIC setup was at its current stage.

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Thank you. When the car is running again I will try and get some actual hard numbers, but for now all I can tell you is what ive felt with my own bare hands over the last year of using it every single day.

torean

ok....back to the tread...im interested in doing this....my question is...which rad did u use?...koyo?..if not what dimension are the IC and rad...can u post any close up pics of each??......while i was thinking bout this i thought the rad might be too tall to make the proper angle. i was thinking more along the lines of a FD setup..where it would be ">" instead of "7"......anyway, gimme more pics!!!!...

to fix all this insufficient air flow problem...u can just mount fans if needed or to setup ducts that would divid up the incoming air flow im sure proper ducting is all that is needed..when in still traffic the duct would then be a barrier against the heat radiation from the rad

hopefully once i get my setup completely i'll have enough air temp sensors to make u guys happy

NZConvertible

Far too much blah, blah to reply to it all, so just a few points...The fact that turbulence upsets AFM readings is well known (particularly hot-wire types), but what's that got to do with your claim about turbulence creating heat? You said "I have also experienced and documented enough [tabulated] flow and heat generated just from an air filter to cause misfire and knocking." Nothing you just posted has anything to do with heat from turbulence, only the airflow effects. So it didn't really tell us much. And was this even on an FC? My pod filter certainly doesn't cause random misfires.

That's a cop-out. All you said was "Turbulence also creates heat. So for the turbulence or air tumbling in the IC to become effective it must obtain more ambient cooling then it creates in turbulant heat." This implies you were suggesting this generated heat does have a noticeable effect in this situation, which is wrong. Any effect would be completely insignificant. Now your saying it was just "educational". Whatever...

This is all BS. You really have no idea how air behaves. Air in the area in front of the radiator and intercooler is already very turbulent, because it's passed through the grille in the nose and around various obstacles in the way. It is not traveling in a nice even path straight through the radiator, so your momentum theory is very weak. The radiator core will cause a similar amount of restriction to airflow as the intercooler, so air will be forced through both. Even though in this case the IC has a restricted outlet, it looks like it also has a larger surface area than the radiator, which works in its favour.

FYI, I design commercial HVAC ductwork systems for a living, so I do know a little about making air go where it should.

iceblue

Hell I just got the computer runing again and no spellchecker yet.Read it again you seem to have missed several points. No it was on my FE. I also stated some air filters.

Now you are asuming and placing words in peoples mouths.

Asume, to make and *** out of me and yourself.

I feel this argument is far weaker.

So does this mean all mecanichs know what they are doing?

If I write a engineering program would that qualify me to go engineer high rises for construction?

So b/c someone does something for a living they are an expert at it, hmmm. Go handy men!


If you are going to continue debating what was not a rocket science or posted to be a rocekt science post, stop placing words together and actualy show information.

I never stated I was right at any time. Disprove me or dont debate it.
Science is never a math but a tool to be disproved to make room for newer ideas and theorys.

InMyWhiteTII

I've been running the formulas and assuming the spacing of the IC and RAD fins was just right, if the setup was like '>' as opposed to like '7' at the right angle, and the ducting was correctly done, and assuming a stock NA hood, the VMIC would outperform a basic FMIC, cooling intake temps by about 15% more. I would post all the formulas but im not sure i understand it all the way myself. Ill run it by a few people and post it later. Fluid Dynamics of Air is a bitch of a concept.

torean

i think imma just make enough ducting to seal off all other possible pathes for the air to escape...then the air will have to flow through the IC and the rad....

InMyWhiteTII...its all about the control volume!!!...mass into the CV is equal to the mass flowing out of the surface

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Good luck finding a radiator that is less than 15'' tall (without spending hundreds on custom). I looked forever and came up with the Griffin I have installed.

Intercooler: 23x12x3''
Radiator (Griffin): 27.5x15x3''

We literally spent dozens of hours fitting this all in there. With the parts I bought and the room avaiable with the more-forward-mounted turbo, this setup is the closest to a ">" as possible. The IC is at a very slight Tilt. Its roughly about 1'' clearance at the frame, and just over 2'' clearance at the rear (closest to engine).

I will try to get you some more pics of the way its setup.

-Andrew

NZConvertible

I missed the bit where you explained how turbulence generated heat which contributed to misfiring. That's what you claimed.

I made no assumptions. I quoted you word for word.

Your feelings don't change anything. What you think is happening is simply not what air does.

Dude, I've read Japlish that made more sense that that sentence! Go learn English.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

man oh man......

FACTS:
V-Mount: - less piping, therefore shorter shots and less volume to charge with boosted air
- doesn't block the rad
- lots n lots of wonderful fab
F-Mount: - Greatest position for cooling the intake charge
- Requires slighty more piping and bends - bends being the worse of the two flow wise
- begins to warm the airflow thats heading to rad - not block it.
- easy to do

bottom line, depends on your turbo setup, use for the car, budget and taste for determining which is better...IMHO front mount on a street car is great....Vmount is more for track purposes given the huge amount of fab and ducting/block off plates involved to make the air flow through all your coolers

bigdongsr94

well i went v mount just for the fun of doing so. I like how its different and dont understand why there is so much argument on it. The top mount has a sheild behind it, you cant tell me that it sees much airflow. But intercoolers still work without a lot of flow and I know my v-mic will cool better than the tmic. Anyway ill try to post a pic, I got this intercooler from a evo VIII i think its a good fit and there good for 300+ hp so it fits my goal.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

this thread isn't about top-mount vs v-mount

eidt: how did you mount your rad in that pic? is it laying flat? the IC should be alot higher than that.....any of the V-mounts Ive helped out with in an FC the back of the V ends up right infront of the water pump pulley

torean

yeah...im interested in the diamension and mounting of the rad as well....im also doing this because im a poor college student and all i have is time...so might as well save a few dollars and try to apply what i learned in class.....

bigdongsr94

No this thread is about fmic but the main argument is less airflow and what im saying is sure maybe it has less airflow but it still works better than the original design which is what modding cars is about. I think that my setup will cool intake temps better than most vmic because i didnt put the back of the intercooler in front of the pulley. I have much more rake on the intercooler which will help with airflow. My radiator is not flat although I would say its more horizonal than some. I think my intercooler will compete with a fmic of equal size and I believe it looks good too.

I do think this is a cheaper setup but thats only cause ive used a lot of used parts and fab about everything that is possible. So far in my gxl to TII i have about $2300 including the car but dont try this on your daily driver.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

^^^yeah I gotcha...

the only reason I critisized that setup is because the whole concept of a vmount is to optimize the cooling of the IC and rad respectively.....

Having the rad flatter than the IC or vice versa really just puts you slightly further ahead than a full front mount.

As well with the IC at the higher rake angle, the IC pipes must be longer with a "twist" in your case, not really a bend. But again the higher back of the IC will mean super short shots (about 10 and 14 inches in a case I am citing)

But that setup you have should work great...good luck

RyoFC3S

iTrader: (1)

Wow i've never seen that kind of angle in an FC. What are the dimensions of that radiator? It must be realllllllly horizontal. I'll be interested to see your coolant temps. Looks great though.

RETed

Cause I'm trying to argue that the FMIC is superior than the majority of those VMIC's...


-Ted

Johny zoom

iTrader: (5)

My I/C is similar to bigdongsr94, It is from a Saab 9000 It is not really a V- mount or front mount. It is in front of the radiator On 90 degree summer day I get water temp about 90 to 92c. normally 88c. I also run water inj. and also expermenting a fuel to air pre intercooler, but thats another story.


Johny

xzyras

You guys don't move your oil coolers on the front mount installs? For a track car the temps should get pretty high. Thats the reason Im thinking of getting a v-mount. And looking into getting some vents cut into my hood. Small ones. Kinda like this: Henry made D1 by the way wooo hoo!

torean

i wonder the same myself...for those that did the work.....how did u mount the oil cooler?...

xzyras

Guess no one moved it...

InMyWhiteTII

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...=wallyhojo%27s

'87 turbo II

iTrader: (1)

ummm... I doubt you could really tell a difference, all this simply by reading the arguments, for every advantage there is a disadvantage for both versions. If performance is the same and i had the money, I'd do Vmount simply because being able to see the Intercooler from the outside would take away from the sleeper look. To me, any visible non OEM part that doesn't make it go faster is ricery. What about top mounting a higher grade int. cooler using the stock TII hood? That would chanel enough air in and having a TII would make the instal incredibly easy. All you would do is put a better intercooler and use bigger piping, boom more performance, easy instilattion, and good look under engine and not visible from exterrior. If someone can post a flaw in that, please do cause logic points to it working but I'm sure there's a reason it's not widely done if it were that easy.

InMyWhiteTII

You mean an aftermarket top mount? While they may be a little easier to install, they definately have their limitations. Nowhere near the airflow or size required to cool higher boost situations. But I definately agree, Vmount, if done correctly, can make it more of a sleeper.

Also for vents for the VMIC, I've considered cutting up an NA hood, rolling the sides I cut, and putting screens in. Anyone have any pics of this done?