Ethanol
#27
Originally Posted by J-Rat
WhAT??! you are kidding, right? The standard ECU can MORE then handle a 10% blend of corn and dino fuel! And there is no issue of rubber deterioration in a 10% blend.
As far as leaning out the mixtures, thats not happening either. The variation of 10% versus anything else you get at the pump is well within the standard variation you might see on straight dyno fuel.. Probably .5 or less on the number. Yea, thats correct, you think when you tank up on 91 octane that you are ABSOLUTELY getting 91 octane? Guess again..
Please do your research before you post more of this unfounded and unsubstantiated information.
Rat
As far as leaning out the mixtures, thats not happening either. The variation of 10% versus anything else you get at the pump is well within the standard variation you might see on straight dyno fuel.. Probably .5 or less on the number. Yea, thats correct, you think when you tank up on 91 octane that you are ABSOLUTELY getting 91 octane? Guess again..
Please do your research before you post more of this unfounded and unsubstantiated information.
Rat
Maybe americas rx-7s were tuned for 91 octane, and can handle a little more abuse, but what i said is true, if it isn't tuned for it, it isn't good for it.
we normally have cars tuned to run on 98 fuel here, using a crappy ethanol blend WILL lean out the AF ratio, maybe it's different over there, but i doubt it
Last edited by RyosukeFC3C; 04-30-06 at 05:42 PM.
#28
Full Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alton, Godfrey, & Macomb IL
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fidelity101
they have 10% ethanol added around me for as long as I can remember.
#29
I live in the lounge...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: lathrup, MI
Posts: 2,000
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RyosukeFC3C
Maybe americas rx-7s were tuned for 91 octane, and can handle a little more abuse, but what i said is true, if it isn't tuned for it, it isn't good for it.
we normally have cars tuned to run on 98 fuel here, using a crappy ethanol blend WILL lean out the AF ratio, maybe it's different over there, but i doubt it
we normally have cars tuned to run on 98 fuel here, using a crappy ethanol blend WILL lean out the AF ratio, maybe it's different over there, but i doubt it
edit:
In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the "headline" octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON, but in the United States and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Because of the 10 point difference noted above, this means that the octane in the United States will be about 4 to 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "normal" gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 91 in Europe.
Last edited by snowball; 04-30-06 at 06:14 PM.
#30
Alcohol Fueled!
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by HAILERS
I guareenteeeeee you will not be going as far down the road on a full tank of this ten percent mix as you would on DINO fuel.
Looked at pork prices lately? Dan alky members. Go to The One Step Plan and get off it. Either that or Alcoholics Aynonomus (serious misspell).
Looked at pork prices lately? Dan alky members. Go to The One Step Plan and get off it. Either that or Alcoholics Aynonomus (serious misspell).
And 10% blend isnt going to effect your fuel economy in any major way that you would notice.. Lets see the numbers:
The three vehicles averaged 1.5% lower mileage with E10, 2.2% lower mileage with E20, 5.1%
Wow.. 1.5 %!! So if you get 24 MPG (like my car does), you now get... Wait for it......23.64 MPG! GOOD GOD MAN! Thats awful!
unless america has some crazy rotors driving around out there, i'll stick with my comments, and the reaserach is years of them offering ethanol in australia, as well as Mazdas specific instructions NOT to use ethanol blends in rotaries, they said the rx-8 should be ok on a 10% MAX blend, but no more, and no early rotaries should use ethanol blends except in the most extreme of times.
Maybe americas rx-7s were tuned for 91 octane, and can handle a little more abuse, but what i said is true, if it isn't tuned for it, it isn't good for it.
we normally have cars tuned to run on 98 fuel here, using a crappy ethanol blend WILL lean out the AF ratio, maybe it's different over there, but i doubt it
Maybe americas rx-7s were tuned for 91 octane, and can handle a little more abuse, but what i said is true, if it isn't tuned for it, it isn't good for it.
we normally have cars tuned to run on 98 fuel here, using a crappy ethanol blend WILL lean out the AF ratio, maybe it's different over there, but i doubt it
You are requested not to use gasahol more then 10% ethanol, or any gasahol containing methanol
I am not trying to re-invent the wheel, but the fact is, our supply of oil will soon come to an end. Its a forgone conclusion. We are going to have to face up to the fact that alternative fuel is something that needs to be given a GOOD HARD LOOK. Alot of the coquettish banter between HAILERS and me is just fine, but the fact is I am a staunch supporter of Ethanol, and I think it can help wean us off foreign oil until something better comes along.
Rat
Last edited by J-Rat; 04-30-06 at 07:13 PM.
#32
sorry, i should've said, Mazda Australia posted those recommendations
couple of topics
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
Mazda Australia:
http://www.mazda.com.au/articleZone1...cleZoneID=2568
http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/stories/s1466787.htm
http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/i...477&hl=ethanol
http://www.fcai.com.au/ethanol.php/2.../00000005.html
I've done a fair bit of research into this.
here they have to have a sign on the pump saying whether it's ethanol blended, my car isn't tuned for ethanol fuel, so i won't be using it, just like i don't use 91RON fuel either, it's not tuned for it.
I totally agree, but me, i'm really wanting mazda to get into liquid hydrogen fuel, the rotary is the near perfect design to handle hydrogen fuels, that's what i'm hoping for, and with bmw doing their hydrogen cars, there might be hope.
I'm more than happy to use ethanol blends in a non modified, piston car, but any rotary i own will always be held in high standard, they cost a lot more over here than where you guys live, we get ripped off, and i don't wanna take any chances, on top of that, i'd only use e10 in a standard or near standard car, and any rx-7 i own is always going to see more track than road use.
couple of topics
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...hlight=ethanol
Mazda Australia:
http://www.mazda.com.au/articleZone1...cleZoneID=2568
http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/stories/s1466787.htm
Mazda Mazda 323 1.8L (1994 onwards), Mazda 323 2.0L (2001 onwards), Mazda2 (11/02 onwards), Mazda3 (All), Premacy (5/02 onwards), Mazda6 (8/02 onwards), 800M and Millenia (8/98 onwards), RX-8 (7/03 onwards), MPV (8/99 onwards), Tribute (All) and E-series (2002 fuel injected models onwards) vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10. All other models not listed above do not operate satisfactorily on E10.
http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/i...477&hl=ethanol
http://www.fcai.com.au/ethanol.php/2.../00000005.html
TECHNICAL REASONS FOR INABILITY TO USE E10
The following are reasons why certain vehicle models cannot or should not use E10 because of material incompatibility and driveability issues respectively. There are also comments on possible exhaust and evaporative emissions issues. This list was compiled from information submitted by manufacturers.
CANNOT USE BECAUSE OF MATERIAL INCOMPATIBILITY ISSUES
Early deterioration of components in fuel injection system:
Fuel tanks
Fuel lines/hoses
Injector seals
Delivery pipes
Fuel pump and regulator
Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns and may experience a lower level of durability in some fuel system components.
Some manufacturers advise not to use E10 with any model equipped with a carburettor because of material incompatibility.
SHOULD NOT USE BECAUSE OF DRIVEABILITY ISSUES
Vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.
Oxygen content of ethanol is 34.7%. This can cause the engine to run lean although the Engine Control Unit (ECU) can generally compensate via feedback from the O2 sensor under light throttle conditions. However, hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration can occur due to this lean-out effect.
Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start.
EXHAUST AND EVAPORATIVE EMISSION LEVELS
Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions.
Fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel system components.
Vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) and can lead to increased evaporative emissions.
The following are reasons why certain vehicle models cannot or should not use E10 because of material incompatibility and driveability issues respectively. There are also comments on possible exhaust and evaporative emissions issues. This list was compiled from information submitted by manufacturers.
CANNOT USE BECAUSE OF MATERIAL INCOMPATIBILITY ISSUES
Early deterioration of components in fuel injection system:
Fuel tanks
Fuel lines/hoses
Injector seals
Delivery pipes
Fuel pump and regulator
Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns and may experience a lower level of durability in some fuel system components.
Some manufacturers advise not to use E10 with any model equipped with a carburettor because of material incompatibility.
SHOULD NOT USE BECAUSE OF DRIVEABILITY ISSUES
Vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.
Oxygen content of ethanol is 34.7%. This can cause the engine to run lean although the Engine Control Unit (ECU) can generally compensate via feedback from the O2 sensor under light throttle conditions. However, hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration can occur due to this lean-out effect.
Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start.
EXHAUST AND EVAPORATIVE EMISSION LEVELS
Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions.
Fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel system components.
Vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) and can lead to increased evaporative emissions.
I've done a fair bit of research into this.
here they have to have a sign on the pump saying whether it's ethanol blended, my car isn't tuned for ethanol fuel, so i won't be using it, just like i don't use 91RON fuel either, it's not tuned for it.
We are going to have to face up to the fact that alternative fuel is something that needs to be given a GOOD HARD LOOK
I'm more than happy to use ethanol blends in a non modified, piston car, but any rotary i own will always be held in high standard, they cost a lot more over here than where you guys live, we get ripped off, and i don't wanna take any chances, on top of that, i'd only use e10 in a standard or near standard car, and any rx-7 i own is always going to see more track than road use.
Last edited by RyosukeFC3C; 04-30-06 at 07:56 PM.
#33
Fast when it works
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Missoula MT usa
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mazda made a hydrogen rx8... I dont know anything about it but i've seen pictures. Here, i found something on it: http://www.mazda.com/publicity/relea...601/0119b.html
#34
Originally Posted by t-too
Mazda made a hydrogen rx8... I dont know anything about it but i've seen pictures. Here, i found something on it: http://www.mazda.com/publicity/relea...601/0119b.html
yes they did, not only does it look good, it actually went well too, i think it only lost about 30hp, gained a little weight with the hydrogen tank, and it averaged like 250 kms to a full tank.
Which doesn't sound that good, but remember no emissions, and hydrogens a relatively new fuel, and compared to bmws v10 engined hydrogen car, the little renesis destroys it.
From what i understand they want to make a dual fueled hydrogen/petrol rx-8.
#36
Boost in..Apex seals out.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Maryland, 21794
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by J-Rat
Well, I will be perfectly willing to concede that E10 wont be good for an AUS rotary, but it is compatable with a US model.
I am not sure that Hydrogen holds much future, but I am definately hoping!
I am not sure that Hydrogen holds much future, but I am definately hoping!
^^^ That made me smile. And then laugh. Uncontrollably. xD
#38
While my car isn't running right now, I did use E10 sometimes and never noticed a problem. It ran just the same as it did normally. I didn't notice any differences in gas milage but it shouldn't net more than a 1 MPG loss anyway, which is too small for me to notice.
As for Dallas, it is now mandated that all pumps have at least 10% ethanol. They actually have several pumps that have E85. My friend is overjoyed because it has higher octane and his Cornet and Dart R/T will run better on it (yes he has already upgraded all fuel components).
As for Dallas, it is now mandated that all pumps have at least 10% ethanol. They actually have several pumps that have E85. My friend is overjoyed because it has higher octane and his Cornet and Dart R/T will run better on it (yes he has already upgraded all fuel components).
#39
Originally Posted by Sideways7
While my car isn't running right now, I did use E10 sometimes and never noticed a problem. It ran just the same as it did normally. I didn't notice any differences in gas milage but it shouldn't net more than a 1 MPG loss anyway, which is too small for me to notice.
As for Dallas, it is now mandated that all pumps have at least 10% ethanol. They actually have several pumps that have E85. My friend is overjoyed because it has higher octane and his Cornet and Dart R/T will run better on it (yes he has already upgraded all fuel components).
As for Dallas, it is now mandated that all pumps have at least 10% ethanol. They actually have several pumps that have E85. My friend is overjoyed because it has higher octane and his Cornet and Dart R/T will run better on it (yes he has already upgraded all fuel components).
#41
Alcohol Fueled!
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by Sideways7
While my car isn't running right now, I did use E10 sometimes and never noticed a problem. It ran just the same as it did normally. I didn't notice any differences in gas milage but it shouldn't net more than a 1 MPG loss anyway, which is too small for me to notice..
#42
Originally Posted by RyosukeFC3C
i'm wondering, do you have the option of ethanol free fuels? or is every pump 10%?
Also, your figures were the basis for my fuel-milage figure J-rat.
#43
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
20 Posts
**********something better comes along**********
It's already here. It's called HYDROGEN. First thing to do is rid ourselves or the jimmey carter madate that we don't reprocess the spent fuel from reactors. Start reprocessing it and that cuts the waste problem in half or better. The build considerably more nuclear plants for a clean source of power and produce HYDROGEN with it. Hydrogne now, hydrodgen forever. Wean yourself from ADM and alky. There's a One Step Plan built just for you.
Hydrogen....GOOD
Ethonal and ADM.....REAL BAD
And, no, I've noticed no bad aftereffects from the 10percent blend of ethonal. But then again, I'm not a person who watches mpg all that much.
It's already here. It's called HYDROGEN. First thing to do is rid ourselves or the jimmey carter madate that we don't reprocess the spent fuel from reactors. Start reprocessing it and that cuts the waste problem in half or better. The build considerably more nuclear plants for a clean source of power and produce HYDROGEN with it. Hydrogne now, hydrodgen forever. Wean yourself from ADM and alky. There's a One Step Plan built just for you.
Hydrogen....GOOD
Ethonal and ADM.....REAL BAD
And, no, I've noticed no bad aftereffects from the 10percent blend of ethonal. But then again, I'm not a person who watches mpg all that much.
#44
Opinions are like........
Around here, MTBE has been used for years. Ethanol is just replacing it. At the pump, the '10% ethanol' stickers are stuck over the old 'contains MTBE' stickers.
No difference in performance in my Mazda or any other car. If I develop leaks, I'll just replace those components with new parts(starting with the 16+ year old fuel hoses....).
Rotaries tend to run rich. A little ethanol might just benefit you and help reduce carbon buildup.
Stock engines shouldn't have any problems.
Modded T2's should already have "fuel control" of some sort.
No difference in performance in my Mazda or any other car. If I develop leaks, I'll just replace those components with new parts(starting with the 16+ year old fuel hoses....).
Rotaries tend to run rich. A little ethanol might just benefit you and help reduce carbon buildup.
Stock engines shouldn't have any problems.
Modded T2's should already have "fuel control" of some sort.
#45
Alcohol Fueled!
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by HAILERS
**********something better comes along**********
It's already here. It's called HYDROGEN. First thing to do is rid ourselves or the jimmey carter madate that we don't reprocess the spent fuel from reactors. Start reprocessing it and that cuts the waste problem in half or better. The build considerably more nuclear plants for a clean source of power and produce HYDROGEN with it. Hydrogne now, hydrodgen forever. Wean yourself from ADM and alky. There's a One Step Plan built just for you.
Hydrogen....GOOD
Ethonal and ADM.....REAL BAD
And, no, I've noticed no bad aftereffects from the 10percent blend of ethonal. But then again, I'm not a person who watches mpg all that much.
It's already here. It's called HYDROGEN. First thing to do is rid ourselves or the jimmey carter madate that we don't reprocess the spent fuel from reactors. Start reprocessing it and that cuts the waste problem in half or better. The build considerably more nuclear plants for a clean source of power and produce HYDROGEN with it. Hydrogne now, hydrodgen forever. Wean yourself from ADM and alky. There's a One Step Plan built just for you.
Hydrogen....GOOD
Ethonal and ADM.....REAL BAD
And, no, I've noticed no bad aftereffects from the 10percent blend of ethonal. But then again, I'm not a person who watches mpg all that much.
Come on Hailers! What are we going to do in the IMMEDIATE future? Long term, I believe that there is hope, but we need a solution NOW. We cant wait for the atom splitters do do thier thing..
#46
Alcohol Fueled!
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by deadRX7Conv
Rotaries tend to run rich. A little ethanol might just benefit you and help reduce carbon buildup.
Stock engines shouldn't have any problems.
Modded T2's should already have "fuel control" of some sort.
Stock engines shouldn't have any problems.
Modded T2's should already have "fuel control" of some sort.
Finally! The voice of REASON! How many of the N/A cars went on the dyno and found that they were pig rich? Remember all the old threads about how people were putting SAFCs on thier cars, taking some fuel out, and finding like 20 HP?
#47
Alcohol Fueled!
iTrader: (2)
Check out this little tidbit!! What DOESNT ethanol do?!?
Hydrogen is being analyzed as an alternative fuel, creating a hydrogen economy. Because hydrogen in its gaseous state takes up a very large volume when compared to other fuels, logistics becomes a difficult problem. One possible solution is to use ethanol to transport the hydrogen, then liberate the hydrogen from its associated carbon in a hydrogen reformer and feed the hydrogen into a fuel cell. Alternatively, some fuel cells (DEFC Direct-ethanol fuel cell) can be directly fed by ethanol or methanol. As of 2005, fuel cells are able to process methanol more efficiently than ethanol.
#48
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
20 Posts
Here's the real deal: **One example is the 2006 Impala, which drops 8 miles to the gallon on the highway using E85 and validated by our own government at www.fueleconomy.gov. It’s true: Ethanol is a very inefficient fuel*****
That came from this: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/classifie...e/13776845.htm
JRAT remiinds me of those calls on CSPAN every other moring touting the uses of HEMP as a fuel, a window cleaner. you name it. Pot heads all. humor
That came from this: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/classifie...e/13776845.htm
JRAT remiinds me of those calls on CSPAN every other moring touting the uses of HEMP as a fuel, a window cleaner. you name it. Pot heads all. humor
#49
Alcohol Fueled!
iTrader: (2)
Of course E85 will be more inefficient. Thats because its 85% Ethanol which does 33% less WORK THEN FUEL. This conversation concerns itself with E10, which is only 10% ethanol.
And yes, I firmly believe that Hemp should be used for paper production and other things. What the science behind that one too?
And yes, I firmly believe that Hemp should be used for paper production and other things. What the science behind that one too?