ddub

Alright so I'm in the process of removing my engine and tearing it down. The main purpose of this is to do some porting work no rebuild intended. Car runs very well and there is supposedly already a rebuild on it (I'll find out once I crack it open). Once I open her up and get it all disassembled I'm going to inspect all the pieces and make sure they are in good condition.

My question is, other than checking things during the tear down and replacing things that need it, is/are there anything that absolutely HAVE to be replaced during an engine tear down? If so what parts? Thanks for any input.


Another side question, if I am taking my engine apart and not rebuilding it, is there any break in time/procedure needed? I'd assume not since the apex seals and housings are the same ones, but just thought I'd ask.

Another side not, if I'm going to replace one apex seal I should probably replace all of them, right? To make sure they all have the same usage on them, right?

Thanks for any info on these questions.

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

If u are taking it apart and do inted to put it back together, then its rebuild and will require break in as any other rebuild. It does not matter if u replace apex seals or not.
Corner seal plugs are pretty much always needed to replace, as well inner water o-rings. Basically any o-rings and seals should be replaced.

ddub

Really? That's very interesting, so then it's just normal break in procedures with an oil change at 500 miles and no going above 4k for 1000 miles or whatever, and then 5k, etc etc gradually reaching redline by 3k miles?

Ok so corner seal plugs, and what all o-rings are there in there? Care to give me a number for each too

I'm sorry I seem lazy, I'm just trying to figure out the amount of everything I will need to order no matter what.

ddub

Would this overhaul kit from atkins supply everything I would HAVE to replace during a tear down? http://atkinsrotary.com/store/custom...cat=591&page=1

Or are there things in there that are not needed? Things missing?



Or this http://rotaryaviation.com/o-ring_kits.htm

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

sorry, no numbers, we just have bunch of orings in box and i always grab it there ;P

front cover o ring
front cover e-shaft seal
oil control o rings (4 small, 4 big)
rear stationary gear o ring
rear stationary gear seal
dowel pin o rings (4)
inner water seals (4)
outer water seals (4)
new seals/washers for tension bolts

That should be all for block itself, everything else u should be able to replace later without need to take engine apart

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Higgi, I have to say you're wrong there. If you break an engine down and catalog exactly where each seal was (like you're supposed to do, if reusing seals, per the FSM) and you put it all back together in that exact placement using all the same housings, you will have EXACTLY the same compresion that you had before, nothing has to break in. It'd be no different than taking your wheel, brake caliper, pads, and rotor all apart, and then reassembling it with the pads in teh same orientation. It never "knows" it was taken apart, it functions the same.

I mainly posted to say how stupid itd be to reuse original apex seals, unless they have <25k miles on them. They are THE wear item in the engine. They're relatively cheap at ~$250/set. WHy on earth would you NOT replace them? IF nothing else, you have to replace apex seals and coolant seals. For a small amount more money, I'd go with viton oil orings, thermal pellet replacement, and front/rear main seals. I consider this bare minimum.

IF YOU ARE CAREFUL during disassembly of the rotors, you can reuse all side and corner seals and springs. They do break easily. The order in which side and corner seals are installed (as compared to how they were oriented before) isn't very important, so if you mix those up you'll still be fine so long as everything is in good condition and moves freely.

ddub

Am I missing something or just stupid. None of the overhaul "kits" on atkins' site have coolant seals listed, is it called something else? And when I search for coolant seals on their site only thermostats show up.

So Kevin, if I was doing an "economy rebuild" like you talk about on your site, other than the apex seals, coolant seals, viton oil rings, thermal pellet, and front/rear main seals, what would YOU suggest in your experience to replace as well?


EDIT:
Same thing on rotary aviation's site, no listing of coolant seals in their rebuild kits.

WAYNE88N/A

Mazdatrix , I believe, has a kit with just the internal seals, IIRC...The 4 combustion o-rings, and the 4 water jacket o-rings, think it was like $125, but check their site to make sure, or give 'em a call....

I agree with Kevin on everything except the corner seal springs- those guys tend to flatten out with use, and won't be as "springy" as the new ones, which cost next to nothing. Definetly go with new oil control seal o-rings, they cost a bit, but well worth it...

ddub

Quick question, this atkins gasket kit: http://atkinsrotary.com/store/custom...cat=480&page=1


Does that come with the o-rings too? It doesn't list exactly what is included in that kit, it appears to have the normal gaskets and then the water seals too, but I'm not sure exactly what it all includes. Anyone bought this before and know?

ddub

Also, I was looking on rotary aviations site and the basic rebuild kit. It comes with a Main (internal) gasket kit. This includes an installation kit (manifold gaskets etc) but then internal gaskets as well. Anyone bought this before and know what it includes?

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Coolant seals come in the "gasket overhaul kit" they offer, which is just basically what it sounds like...all orings and gaskets except those that go on the rotors. IT comes with tension bolt seals, upper dowel orings, and things like OMP oring and oilpan gasket and intake gaskets and ****. Looking at any of these kits, the coolant seals are the big 12" diameter orings, 4 orange, 4 black with whitish-blue stripes.

That's pretty much it for a standard engine that didnt suffer any damage as a result of overheating or apex damage. Obviously examine and check all your parts...bearings, oilpump, chain, rotor tips, etc. etc. Clean everything up really well. IF you have extra money, then opt for 93+ cornerseal springs, and perhaps even solid cornerseals. Sideseals and springs are easily broken/bent during removal and cleaning, but if you make it past this point then they're usually fine to reuse and are the last part I'd consider replacing. Novices can actually screw up a rebuild trying to use new sideseals, vs reusing old ones. New ones have to be hand clearanced, used ones pop right into place and are factory clearanced. I've seen this a lot on DIY rebuilds. The seals themselves don't wear much at all, I've spec'd used sideseals at <5% wear vs. new ones. One time I actually checked and the old set was identical in height to the new ones.

The wire type, yes. For a low power streetcar it doesnt much matter, they still perform their function. I usually bend them a little by hand to add some more springiness, and to check for weakness. I rarely find it to be a problem, and Ive had engines make killer compression with all used springs. BUt yes, if you're the type to lose sleep over it, then spend the 40 bucks on FD cornerseal springs and go on about life.

what, 50, 60 bucks? Like I tell people, if you can't afford teh basics, you don't need to be doing this. It's like those people that try to rebuild half a motor, just one rotor, or try to reuse 100k+ mile apex seals.

ddub

Thank you so much Kevin, you just made my life a lot easier in trying to figure these things out



Let me know what you think of this list if I was doing a basic rebuild:

Atkins 86-88 N/A Aftermarket Gasket - 130 (would this come with all the o-rings you'd suggest I replace and other gaskets?)
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/custom...cat=480&page=1

2mm Rotary Aviation apex seals and springs, set - 182
http://rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm

Atkins thermal pellet - 8.50
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/custom...1&cat=0&page=1


If that's all I'm looking at getting that's only 320.50 which isn't bad. My car runs great, no problems at all, so I see no reason for a full/overboard rebuild at this time. I will still inspect things, obviously, during the tear down.

Is there anything else that you'd absolutely suggest I get other than what is listed here?

ddub

Or my other option would be to get the atkins overhaul kit A:
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/custom...cat=591&page=1


And then get the apex seals seperately, do you think that'd be a better choice?

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I think if it were me I'd go with all atkins stuff, though Ive heard great things about the RA seals. I have used 4 sets of RA seals, 3 of which turned out fine, one wasn't worth a **** and had to be re-rebuilt with atkins seals. I do not know the problem with that one set of seals, its probably just an isolated incident. Note that the RA seals are cheaper than atkins seals, and they come with new springs whereas atkins do not.

ddub

When I was pricing things I had just one question, because I am going to be buying most things seperately instead of in their kits. How important is the "Pilot Bearing and Seal" for an economical rebuild? I mean, I'll inspect it, but that's not somethig you listed as needed so I'm assuming it is usually okay?

WAYNE88N/A

Depends on how old the one in the car is...If you have a tool for easy extraction, it's only like $10...If the one on now has more than 50-60K miles on it, it's a good idea to change it...

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

In case you don't know, pilot bearing is a clutch part. It goes in the end of the eshaft, and the trans input shaft slides into it. Usually your old one is okay to reuse, it's a simple needle bearing, check it and lube it if it is still intact and freely spins and you'll be fine.

ddub

Yah I know what it is, problem is the extractor tool is like 100 bucks from atkins and I don't know anyone that has that tool near me that I would be able to borrow.

ddub

Can the FD corner seal springs be used with the corner seals I currently have in there without any modifications?

Dan H

FD corner seal springs fit with no mods at all.

ddub

Thx

aka_rocket

wow! this thread helped me SOOOO much. i was looking through tons of threads and this one had AWESOME helpful tips and advice.. im searching because i will be diving into mine during the winter break (no school then since i still need the car now). kinda nervous about rebuild though since its the biggest thing i will be doing since fixing my ac system and swapping dash. just had to post and say....AWESOME information.

ddub

Well here's my site on the whole process as I am done now if you care to look.

http://home.comcast.net/~drewrx7/rx7.html

Dan H

Nice! Project seems to be going pretty well so far.

ddub

Yep, finally got the driveshaft back in and tranny fluid filled up today and it's now back on the road. Still running great, after sitting for about a week+ it fired right up without a problem, still no flooding issues or anything at 60+ miles, running better by the day!