E 85 Fuel
11-13-13, 03:42 PM
#26
what i'm saying is it isn't for everyone. if you have no need for additional knock protection then it isn't going to do much except introduce more potential problems.
the only cars i have ever recommended it for were high compression turbocharged engines and those who wanted to run 20+ psi without the need for a water injection system which can fail.
if he was running 25+ and not 14psi i wouldn't hesitate to say go for it. since he's not and running race gas with water, why? there's more drawbacks than gains. there's simpler solutions which i gave.
the only cars i have ever recommended it for were high compression turbocharged engines and those who wanted to run 20+ psi without the need for a water injection system which can fail.
if he was running 25+ and not 14psi i wouldn't hesitate to say go for it. since he's not and running race gas with water, why? there's more drawbacks than gains. there's simpler solutions which i gave.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-13-13 at 03:46 PM.
11-13-13, 05:50 PM
#27
we can argue he is wasting his race fuel running 14psi as it is
your drawback is the "many clogged fuel systems".............. how many clogged fuel systems have you come across, what exactly was "clogged" and how did you fix them? Do you have any pictures of the clogs?
your drawback is the "many clogged fuel systems".............. how many clogged fuel systems have you come across, what exactly was "clogged" and how did you fix them? Do you have any pictures of the clogs?
11-13-13, 05:58 PM
#28
yes i have, but the tank hadn't been prepped nearly as well as it should have. it apparently had surface corrosion inside which took many months of filter replacements and 044 strainer cleans to get to the point of being even remotely ready.
not everyone will run into the issue, having a good clean tank is definitely a necessity with E85 where it is a bit less so with gasoline. i can guarantee the gasoline wouldn't have stripped the inside of the tank clean within a cycle or 2 and been nearly as problematic.
had i known the tank was ****, i would have told him to suck up his wasted money on sumping it and start over.
not everyone will run into the issue, having a good clean tank is definitely a necessity with E85 where it is a bit less so with gasoline. i can guarantee the gasoline wouldn't have stripped the inside of the tank clean within a cycle or 2 and been nearly as problematic.
had i known the tank was ****, i would have told him to suck up his wasted money on sumping it and start over.
11-13-13, 06:52 PM
#30
i'm sure it would have, but the problems would have been much less with gasoline in the tank versus ethanol.
and why would you think that a company that sells injectors(ID) gives warnings about the fuel? their business is selling people upgrades, not trying to dissuade them from it.
and why would you think that a company that sells injectors(ID) gives warnings about the fuel? their business is selling people upgrades, not trying to dissuade them from it.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-13-13 at 06:55 PM.
11-13-13, 07:59 PM
#31
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Great! The actual results from the Renewable Fuels Foundation determined that E85 is 94-96 octane. This was from testing on actual engines, not theory. Therefore, the OP would be downgrading the knock resistance of his current fuel system if he converts to E85.
Those aren't warnings, they are just "a bunch of typing". As we all know from reading this thread, a dyno sheet posted on the internet by an uneducated, untrained, home "mechanic" trumps anything that the professionals say. Those guys who talk about physics, fuel properties, and reality are just a bunch of haters.
11-14-13, 09:11 AM
#32
professionals concerning RX7s, meaning guys who tune and build motors- give it a very big thumbs up.
they are saying it allows you to run higher boost safer, cleaner, and cooler.
Tell you the truth I could care less what some pencil pusher says
we live in a day and age when there is a warning on EVERYTHING. Do we need instructions for a belt to say "SHUT VEHICLE OFF FIRST"?
And they have started to release specific injectors now for flex fuel, I suspect in another few years it will be standard practice for all injectors being that e10-e15 is the norm now
they are saying it allows you to run higher boost safer, cleaner, and cooler.
Tell you the truth I could care less what some pencil pusher says
we live in a day and age when there is a warning on EVERYTHING. Do we need instructions for a belt to say "SHUT VEHICLE OFF FIRST"?
And they have started to release specific injectors now for flex fuel, I suspect in another few years it will be standard practice for all injectors being that e10-e15 is the norm now
11-14-13, 10:33 AM
#33
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Evil,
you crack me up about the octane rating. Making power is not all about the octane rating of the fuel. I am at 750rwhp on e85 and I know Anthony is making more power then I. And there are more guys out there making great power with out issues. Can you explain how this is being done on 100octane fuel?
I've been on e85 for almost 2 years now. Paper fuel filter element, no special fuel lines. No issues. I do check things often but I would be checking things often even if I were using race gas. It's part of owning a rotary. "preventative maintenance"
Datalog fuel pressure. Currently using 8 1600cc injectors and the MS seen is in the 6ms range at 9000 rpms
Friends FD we converted 6 months ago ran lean two weeks ago. Daily driven 450whp FD. Checked datalog and found fuel pressure was low. Removed the paper filter and cleaned it, reinstalled and his issues was resolved. Was it the e85 that clogged the filter?? Last time he checked or cleaned it was 3 years ago. Again this goes back to preventative maintenance.
Another FD on e85 for two years. 700+whp FD. Noticed afr problem. removed paper filters and the one after the pump was dirty. Replaced and all was good. This filter showed no signs of deterioration. It was just dirty. Both FDs are using the stock tanks which were not cleaned before switching to e85. Again, "preventative maintenance"
This debate can go on and on but I found that the guys who say "e85 is crap" are the guys who have not tried it. They seems to be the one who read allot or the one who have had a issue with it and blame it on e85. Like this would have never happened if the car was on race gas. "preventative maintenance"
Blown fuel pump fuse, Must have been the e85.
Leaking fuel line, must be the e85
Water in the tank, must be the e85
dirty fuel filter, got to be because e85
Over the last 35 years of working on cars, can't tell you how many times these same issues have happened, and they were on pump gas.
peace.
you crack me up about the octane rating. Making power is not all about the octane rating of the fuel. I am at 750rwhp on e85 and I know Anthony is making more power then I. And there are more guys out there making great power with out issues. Can you explain how this is being done on 100octane fuel?
I've been on e85 for almost 2 years now. Paper fuel filter element, no special fuel lines. No issues. I do check things often but I would be checking things often even if I were using race gas. It's part of owning a rotary. "preventative maintenance"
Datalog fuel pressure. Currently using 8 1600cc injectors and the MS seen is in the 6ms range at 9000 rpms
Friends FD we converted 6 months ago ran lean two weeks ago. Daily driven 450whp FD. Checked datalog and found fuel pressure was low. Removed the paper filter and cleaned it, reinstalled and his issues was resolved. Was it the e85 that clogged the filter?? Last time he checked or cleaned it was 3 years ago. Again this goes back to preventative maintenance.
Another FD on e85 for two years. 700+whp FD. Noticed afr problem. removed paper filters and the one after the pump was dirty. Replaced and all was good. This filter showed no signs of deterioration. It was just dirty. Both FDs are using the stock tanks which were not cleaned before switching to e85. Again, "preventative maintenance"
This debate can go on and on but I found that the guys who say "e85 is crap" are the guys who have not tried it. They seems to be the one who read allot or the one who have had a issue with it and blame it on e85. Like this would have never happened if the car was on race gas. "preventative maintenance"
Blown fuel pump fuse, Must have been the e85.
Leaking fuel line, must be the e85
Water in the tank, must be the e85
dirty fuel filter, got to be because e85
Over the last 35 years of working on cars, can't tell you how many times these same issues have happened, and they were on pump gas.
peace.
11-14-13, 11:02 AM
#34
I said results!
Great! The actual results from the Renewable Fuels Foundation determined that E85 is 94-96 octane. This was from testing on actual engines, not theory. Therefore, the OP would be downgrading the knock resistance of his current fuel system if he converts to E85.
The man tuned on E85 (posted results) and made it to the track the following night and ran a 10.81 (more results) I guess the 94-96 octane is working great
The man tuned on E85 (posted results) and made it to the track the following night and ran a 10.81 (more results) I guess the 94-96 octane is working great
11-14-13, 11:12 AM
#35
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Evil,
......
This debate can go on and on but I found that the guys who say "e85 is crap" are the guys who have not tried it. They seems to be the one who read allot or the one who have had a issue with it and blame it on e85. Like this would have never happened if the car was on race gas. "preventative maintenance"
Blown fuel pump fuse, Must have been the e85.
Leaking fuel line, must be the e85
Water in the tank, must be the e85
dirty fuel filter, got to be because e85
Over the last 35 years of working on cars, can't tell you how many times these same issues have happened, and they were on pump gas.
peace.
......
This debate can go on and on but I found that the guys who say "e85 is crap" are the guys who have not tried it. They seems to be the one who read allot or the one who have had a issue with it and blame it on e85. Like this would have never happened if the car was on race gas. "preventative maintenance"
Blown fuel pump fuse, Must have been the e85.
Leaking fuel line, must be the e85
Water in the tank, must be the e85
dirty fuel filter, got to be because e85
Over the last 35 years of working on cars, can't tell you how many times these same issues have happened, and they were on pump gas.
peace.
, love that one. It is not like that person undersized their wiring and fuse setup.
I would love to know more about how E-85 makes so much power when the octane rating is so low. Does anyone know what other properties contribute to the fuel to make it perform much better than what is says on paper?
11-14-13, 11:15 AM
#36
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Results.
Last weekend the car ran 123 mph in the 1/8 mile. On another pass it went 9.2 in the 1/4 mile. Is what I found funny about the 123 mph 1/8 mile is, back 10 years ago I went 11.5 at 127 in the 1/4 mile and thought I had the world by the tail. Just tooting my own horn But the car may go 8.9 soon. 
Another thing that I was told that eased my mind about going E85. If tuned on e85 and you get some e70. It's will run a richer afr. So I tune e85 to 11.2 afr. Then if I do get some e70 the afr will go high 10s. Also run a conservative timing map. I am not using e85 to make more power, I use it as another safety thing.
Last weekend the car ran 123 mph in the 1/8 mile. On another pass it went 9.2 in the 1/4 mile. Is what I found funny about the 123 mph 1/8 mile is, back 10 years ago I went 11.5 at 127 in the 1/4 mile and thought I had the world by the tail. Just tooting my own horn
But the car may go 8.9 soon. Another thing that I was told that eased my mind about going E85. If tuned on e85 and you get some e70. It's will run a richer afr. So I tune e85 to 11.2 afr. Then if I do get some e70 the afr will go high 10s. Also run a conservative timing map. I am not using e85 to make more power, I use it as another safety thing.
11-14-13, 11:52 AM
#37
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Evil,
you crack me up about the octane rating. Making power is not all about the octane rating of the fuel. I am at 750rwhp on e85 and I know Anthony is making more power then I. And there are more guys out there making great power with out issues. Can you explain how this is being done on 100octane fuel?
you crack me up about the octane rating. Making power is not all about the octane rating of the fuel. I am at 750rwhp on e85 and I know Anthony is making more power then I. And there are more guys out there making great power with out issues. Can you explain how this is being done on 100octane fuel?
Arghx has posted some info about the octane rating process, and how the two numbers (RON and MON) only tell you a couple of things, when there are more properties of the fuel that may or may not matter.
although i've heard about some cars in japan, that are 700hp on pump gas, which is ~98RON over there. the one you've heard of is the red scoot FD.
11-14-13, 01:43 PM
#38
, love that one. It is not like that person undersized their wiring and fuse setup.
I would love to know more about how E-85 makes so much power when the octane rating is so low. Does anyone know what other properties contribute to the fuel to make it perform much better than what is says on paper?
You know- those guys who talk about physics, fuel properties, and reality
11-14-13, 02:11 PM
#39
Here is how great it is...
In the USA, the octane rating for E85 is not posted on the pump. Depending on the time of year and the local regulations, the mixture can vary from 70% to 84% ethanol blended with regular unleaded. The wonderful thing is that unless you take a test sample every time that you fuel up at the pump, you will never know exactly what you are putting into your tank. How great is that?!!!
Now, let's say that you do know the octane rating. Are you familiar with the (R+M)/2 method used in the USA? It is an average between the Research Octane Number (RON) anti-knock index based on cruise, and the Motor Octane Number (MON) anti-knock index based on an engine under heavy load. For sports cars, the MON matters most because the engine is under load when the car is accelerating rapidly, although the (R+M)/2 method is a nice way to portray the overall stability of the fuel. Here are some typical numbers for fuel:
Ethanol - RON 108-115, MON 90-92
Super Unleaded ("91 octane" pump gas) - RON 96, MON 85-86
Racing Unleaded - RON 104-106, MON 94-96
From the above stats, you can see that pure ethanol has a better MON than 91 super unleaded, but it is not as good as the racing fuel example. Ethanol has a very high RON, but unfortunately this doesn't matter much for a sports car, and when you factor it into the (R+M)/2 method it will give ethanol a deceivingly high rating. Therefore, if E85 were to have a pump sticker stating "95 octane" (R+M)/2, it would be more comparable to "93 octane" super unleaded under heavy load. Also, due to the larger difference between RON and MON (usually called the "octane differential"), ethanol is not as stable as the other fuels listed.
Now let's look at the cooler running of ethanol. This is known as the latent heat of evaporation (or vaporization). The higher the number the better the cooling:
Ethanol - 364 BTU/lb
Unleaded Gasoline - 135 BTU/lb
Water - 970 BTU/lb
Methanol - 472 BTU/lb
As you can see from the above numbers, your water/meth kit is far superior to pure ethanol, and even more so when you factor in the gasoline content of E85.
Therefore, as I stated earlier, E85 is crap.
In the USA, the octane rating for E85 is not posted on the pump. Depending on the time of year and the local regulations, the mixture can vary from 70% to 84% ethanol blended with regular unleaded. The wonderful thing is that unless you take a test sample every time that you fuel up at the pump, you will never know exactly what you are putting into your tank. How great is that?!!!
Now, let's say that you do know the octane rating. Are you familiar with the (R+M)/2 method used in the USA? It is an average between the Research Octane Number (RON) anti-knock index based on cruise, and the Motor Octane Number (MON) anti-knock index based on an engine under heavy load. For sports cars, the MON matters most because the engine is under load when the car is accelerating rapidly, although the (R+M)/2 method is a nice way to portray the overall stability of the fuel. Here are some typical numbers for fuel:
Ethanol - RON 108-115, MON 90-92
Super Unleaded ("91 octane" pump gas) - RON 96, MON 85-86
Racing Unleaded - RON 104-106, MON 94-96
From the above stats, you can see that pure ethanol has a better MON than 91 super unleaded, but it is not as good as the racing fuel example. Ethanol has a very high RON, but unfortunately this doesn't matter much for a sports car, and when you factor it into the (R+M)/2 method it will give ethanol a deceivingly high rating. Therefore, if E85 were to have a pump sticker stating "95 octane" (R+M)/2, it would be more comparable to "93 octane" super unleaded under heavy load. Also, due to the larger difference between RON and MON (usually called the "octane differential"), ethanol is not as stable as the other fuels listed.
Now let's look at the cooler running of ethanol. This is known as the latent heat of evaporation (or vaporization). The higher the number the better the cooling:
Ethanol - 364 BTU/lb
Unleaded Gasoline - 135 BTU/lb
Water - 970 BTU/lb
Methanol - 472 BTU/lb
As you can see from the above numbers, your water/meth kit is far superior to pure ethanol, and even more so when you factor in the gasoline content of E85.
Therefore, as I stated earlier, E85 is crap.
On the other hand, if you run out of E85 the engine shuts off...
I agree E85 as a fuel is crap and it definitely will clog a filter faster (first hand experience). But, IMO tuning for water/meth provides a very realistic failure mode with a 99% potential for destroying an engine.
It's one of those ivory tower engineer exercises. It's great on paper but when what can go wrong, does, its a guaranteed detonation event (or multiple).
11-14-13, 02:28 PM
#40
As a fuel, it's still crap, mainly due to it's love for water, but it does have advantages that make it very attractive as a race fuel.
11-14-13, 02:57 PM
#41
as a side note, i never said it was crap. i said it wasn't worthwhile for what the OPs intentions were for it.
the question was basically "should i run an alternative fuel in my lightly modified car pushing 14psi with water injection?", to which this snowballed into a "you're all E85 haters" thread.
the question was basically "should i run an alternative fuel in my lightly modified car pushing 14psi with water injection?", to which this snowballed into a "you're all E85 haters" thread.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-14-13 at 03:01 PM.
11-14-13, 03:09 PM
#42
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Ok guys. Let me start all over again, All my engine accessories were transferred from my bridge ported engine with 477 rwhp. At 21 psi boost, and ADI. The newly built street ported S5 was tuned to only 14 psi boost in order to give it a smooth run in, before going full blast. I know it sounds stupid to a lot of people, but that the way I do things, sorry.
Now, should I continue with racing fuel and ADI or take a step in to for me unknown territory of E85? My goal is 480 – 490 rwhp in order to make 175-178 mph on the Texas mile (my best speed with old engine was 172 mph), at 178 I will run out of gears, but still beat my Son’s Camaro ZL 1 with some margin.
It seems to me that E85 demand, more upgrading like fuel pump and the rest of the fuel system. Also reading the specification I read “ ASTM 5798 SPECIFIES THE ALLOWABLE FUEL ETHANOL CONTENT IN E85 AS RANGING FROM 51% to 83%” !!!??
Question: Can I reach my goal with race gas and ADI or do I have to go to, for me unknown territory??
Now, should I continue with racing fuel and ADI or take a step in to for me unknown territory of E85? My goal is 480 – 490 rwhp in order to make 175-178 mph on the Texas mile (my best speed with old engine was 172 mph), at 178 I will run out of gears, but still beat my Son’s Camaro ZL 1 with some margin.
It seems to me that E85 demand, more upgrading like fuel pump and the rest of the fuel system. Also reading the specification I read “ ASTM 5798 SPECIFIES THE ALLOWABLE FUEL ETHANOL CONTENT IN E85 AS RANGING FROM 51% to 83%” !!!??
Question: Can I reach my goal with race gas and ADI or do I have to go to, for me unknown territory??
11-14-13, 03:13 PM
#43
it's only unkown until you try it.
since you do plan on pushing 20+psi the benefit of E85 is that it cost less than your race fuel and should lower your EGTs marginally.
i would upgrade the pump though, since you will need more fuel availability. just be sure to flush out the tank and cycle it for a while before assuming everything is ok, then change the fuel filters/socks and then tune it. most of the people who have the largest issues are the ones who fill up with E85 and go straight to the dyno and/or neglect the fuel system.
since you do plan on pushing 20+psi the benefit of E85 is that it cost less than your race fuel and should lower your EGTs marginally.
i would upgrade the pump though, since you will need more fuel availability. just be sure to flush out the tank and cycle it for a while before assuming everything is ok, then change the fuel filters/socks and then tune it. most of the people who have the largest issues are the ones who fill up with E85 and go straight to the dyno and/or neglect the fuel system.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-14-13 at 03:15 PM.
11-15-13, 12:21 PM
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11-15-13, 12:42 PM
#46
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it's only unkown until you try it.
since you do plan on pushing 20+psi the benefit of E85 is that it cost less than your race fuel and should lower your EGTs marginally.
i would upgrade the pump though, since you will need more fuel availability. just be sure to flush out the tank and cycle it for a while before assuming everything is ok, then change the fuel filters/socks and then tune it. most of the people who have the largest issues are the ones who fill up with E85 and go straight to the dyno and/or neglect the fuel system.
since you do plan on pushing 20+psi the benefit of E85 is that it cost less than your race fuel and should lower your EGTs marginally.
i would upgrade the pump though, since you will need more fuel availability. just be sure to flush out the tank and cycle it for a while before assuming everything is ok, then change the fuel filters/socks and then tune it. most of the people who have the largest issues are the ones who fill up with E85 and go straight to the dyno and/or neglect the fuel system.
Still don’t know if I going to do the “unknown” known. Decision, decision………..
11-15-13, 05:07 PM
#47
once again let me suggest you venture over the "alternative fuels" section of the forum for better responses, you may want to read up in there for a bit as well to educate yourself
https://www.rx7club.com/alternative-fuels-249/
11-15-13, 08:08 PM
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need castor based premix, im running Klotz Benol
once again let me suggest you venture over the "alternative fuels" section of the forum for better responses, you may want to read up in there for a bit as well to educate yourself
https://www.rx7club.com/alternative-fuels-249/
once again let me suggest you venture over the "alternative fuels" section of the forum for better responses, you may want to read up in there for a bit as well to educate yourself
https://www.rx7club.com/alternative-fuels-249/
11-16-13, 01:06 PM
#49
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Tons of bad information there too. Keep in mind that the regulars in that forum are novices who are experimenting with their cars. As long as you understand that then you will be OK. Prior to implementing any of the ideas you read there, I recommend running them past the "other" rotary internet forum.
11-17-13, 10:43 AM
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Tons of bad information there too. Keep in mind that the regulars in that forum are novices who are experimenting with their cars. As long as you understand that then you will be OK. Prior to implementing any of the ideas you read there, I recommend running them past the "other" rotary internet forum.
For hp under 450 - 500 and <20-21 psi boost
Racing fuel (104-109) with water/methanol injection has a slight advantage over E85.
Disadvantage racing fuel:
-If your W/M injection goes south under full load you engine goes the same way, bye-bye
- Expensive to run.
Advantage:
No additional cost, except tuning
Disadvantage E85:
New fuel pump, new filter (ss), new fuel lines, new injectors, new tuning full day
Advantage:
-Safer and cooler to run.
-“Inexpensive” fuel.
For > 450-500 hp, advantage E85
Disadvantage:
- Upgrade fuel system
- Expensive rebuilding to prevent twisting of engine.
- New ECU to monitor grad of, and adjust engine setting for E85 to true value. (A safety feature to protect engine from low grade E85)
- Upgrade of Turbo ?
Advatage:
Power-power-Fun – Fun – Fun
Any comments are welcome
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