Dude, just go build it... you could've had it done by now, instead of fighting on the internets... WTF...

 

Im just defending my stand on it. Like I have said time and time before, when it gets here, I will start.

 

"they didnt design the intake with speed in mind" - yea... sure. Thats why the RX-7 of the time, especially the TII, was the pinnacle of mazda's knowledge about sports cars, going fast etc. Sure, they were still meeting a price point, but they had to design the manifold in the first place, and re-did it with the S5, so im sure they had "speed in mind", as well as overall drivability.

I agree with you completely on weight, as long as you can come up with a design that will do as well as the stock one. And your generalization of the stock one is not very accurate. The intake tracts are split, as in completely seperate, stock, after the throttle body. There is one path from the primary of the three butterflys through a seperate chamber (although it is cast into the whole plenum), down to the primary intake ports. Then there are the secondary butterflies, which open later in the throttle's stroke, that have their own chamber that makes up the other half of the plenum, with runners going down to the secondary ports. This is how they achieve higher intake velocities regardless of throttle position for more torque down low, without sacrificing overall flow at WOT. If you do a collected plenum, you're losing the benefit of the double-throttle system that your stock manifold has. Maybe you'll understand more completely once you get the intake in your hands, it can be difficult to imagine it.

You still havent addressed how you would do things like the injector seats, fastening of the fuel rail, what nipples you would need and how you would provide filtered air (but without the vac signal) in the intake for the injector air bleeds etc). In no way is this supposed to discourage you, its just more to chew on so you can do a 'complete' job and not a hacked one

 

AHEM. I own and operate a body shop here in Ontario Canada. I've been into 7's for years and currently own a 1/2 bridged TII with T04-R, although still in the breakin stage - its easily capable of over 400whp Also I've assisted building many types of vehicles including an 8 (now sub 8) second Pontiac Firebird.

Wrong. They re-designed the S4 intake for the S5. As well as revised the TII intakes between the two series. They also changed it again for the FD (REW), again for the RE, and made the RE's changes applicable to the 20B. Then re-designed the entire engine as a whole (port timing/shape, rotor weight/compression etc.) along with the intake to support it for the RX-8.

Thats what everyone has been saying. Since the start of the thread...........

My koyo rad is heavier then the stocker. And its ** aluminum.

Sure, this is - again - what has been said all along. If you want speed go p-port or bridgeport. Mazda had to make these cars pass emissions as well.

 

The injector seats, I will do something similar to what Aaron used on his. For the fuel rail mounting, I am going to make custom fuel rails, so I will work out attaching points when I get to that step. As far as the nipples, that will all be determined when I get the new motor, and the custom intake will have the same vacuum hoses going to it as the stock one.

These are all things that I by no means have forgot about, but its just things that I wont be able to fully figure out until I have the stock intake in my hand and am looking at it.

 

Classic, a subtle change for mounting to a different engine is by no means a complete redesign. And congrats on being a mechanic. That means jack didley **** to me. But being a body man isn't ****. When I need help with a body kit, I know who to come to. And by assist I assume you mean body work and handing the actual mechanic some wrenches?

 

Holy s**t have you ever seen an S5 N/A intake vs. an S4 N/A? Guess not. Or an REW? Or an RE? Guess not either.

No, by assist I mean building a NHRA certified roll cage for that 8 second Firebird in my body shop, countless restoration of everything ranging from Triumphs, to FC's, to Mustangs to - most recently - an old '54 Fire engine that we're altering into a tow vehicle for a customer. We've been here since 1977.

You really need a reality check Mr. 200mm throttle body

 

Wow. So please explain to me where an NHRA certified roll cage has ANYTHING to do with performance? And you want to question my credibility?? But hey, Im the one who needs the reality check.

Your talking all kinds of **** about how you helped build an 8 second Firebird like you completely built the motor and all you did was build a roll cage. lol. You crack me up man. I will never take anything you say seriously. Not after that.

 

For starters it stiffens the body allowing more drastic weight reductions. Weren't you the one who bitched about weight?

And am I the only one who realized he said lighter rotors where for power to weight ratio?

 

Wow, after reading this thread, I'd have to say you are completely full of ****.

That said, there are many reasons for material choice on an intake manifold. Aluminum transfers heat much faster than steel or stainless steel, this could definatly be an issue when the intake manifold containing your fuel/air mixture is inches away from a 1000 degree turbine and downpipe. Cost and availability is also a big issue, as your going to be paying 3-4 times more for aluminum than steel. Not everyone owns or has access to equipment capable of welding aluminum, and to have someone else do it will cost hundreds of dollars. The aluminum manifold will definatly be lighter, but the cost/weight savings may not be worth it depending on your situation. If your so worried about weight and are as billy badass of a fabricator as you make yourself out to be, why not make it out of carbon fiber or another composite that would be even lighter than aluminum?

As for fabricating a full aluminum intake manifold in one day? HAH! Not even if you already had a full jig for everything. My bet is you wouldn't even get it done in a week working 8 hours a day.

If your actually serious about building one, I suggest you use that SEARCH function, as there are several indepth and informative threads on this subject. From reading all your bullshit, I can tell your going to need all the help you can get.


BTW, here is a custom one piece aluminum intake manifold:

 

The way I see it, this thread has too much talking and not enough doing.

Edit: DelSlow has brought the doing into this thread along with the awesomeness.

 

Think what you want. I dont give a ****. Fact of the matter is cost of aluminum is only slightly more then that of steel. But when I already have most of it.....

Now Im guessing you dont really know **** about metal. Aluminum does not retain heat as much as steel or other metals. In fact aluminum disipates heat at a greater rate then most other metals. The only other metal that does this is titanium. Which is again lighter then aluminum, but I am not building a 5 grand intake. So why, do you think, they build the primary parts of high performance cooling systems (radiator, intercooler, and oil coolers) out of aluminum? Because the transfer of cool air is quicker through aluminum. It breaths better then most other metals and also has a higher melting point. So high flowing mass amounts of air through an aluminum intake will actually keep the air/fuel mixture cooler.

Now aluminum is the lightest material that is also the safest. A carbon fiber intake?? Come on. Maybe for the upper plenum that would be fine, but not for the whole manifold. Since aluminum is more porous then carbon fiber, aluminum seems to be the viable option here. Because when carbon fiber sets up, it doesnt allow much airflow and cooling.

And as for your 1000 degree turbine and downpipe. As hard as I try I have no idea what the **** your talking about. Unless your daily driver is a Boeing 747, there should be no reason why your turbines and downpipe is anywhere near 1000 degrees.

And it doesnt need a whole jig as you seem to think. Basically all you need is the motor to check fitment, and the ability to fabricate something. I have built entire aluminum armored vehicles in one night so an intake isnt that big of a deal. As long as you have pipe benders (which I have), a welder (which I have), and a CNC plasma machine (which I have unlimited access to). So.....

I really dont need any help. I can do it on my own. I started this basically for people to share their experiences and what they had done because I know what i am doing and what i am going to do.

So DelSlow, go away. Your being an idiot. Which seems to be the case with the majority of this forum.

 

Yup lord knows the NHRA knows nothing about performance....

I question anyone's credibilty who thinks putting a 200mm throttle body on their car is a sweet idea.

But hey, Im the one who needs the reality check right

Well, since you asked, the builder (and father of the driver) and I have gone through several different porting configurations on the heads over the last 4 seasons and finally have one we can replicate quickly on a mill that yeilds the power he's after. This engine and head makes a hair over 1050bhp on the engine dyno on methanol. Hopefully I don't have to help again twice in the same season. It gets costly and last year was one of those years....

No, that was all I mentioned at the time. I didn't feel like cluttering this **** pile up with more useless off topic paragraphs, but since you probed......you got.

Now - I see we've managed to muster up Delslow and his little masterpiece. I love that mani.

Another that struck me just now is Steve from MPS right here in Ontario. He did his own custom manifold on a 20B turbo, and if I recall, he's also experimenting with slide throttles as of late. Thats another good project there.

 

He didn't say retain

Actually, my EGT's pre-turbine are about 1400F while cruising at light load.

Yeah-huh.......because metals never warp when you apply heat. Right Mr. 200mm throttle body?

 

Wow... thanks for reinforcing my point?

I said:
This is your rebuttal?!
You do realize that your underhood temps are going to be much higher than outside ambient temps? It "breathes" better? WTF?! What does porosity have to do with anything? If thats true, maybe you should just drill a whole bunch of little holes in your tubing. Titanium does NOT conduct heat very well at all. Have you ever heard of copper, gold, or silver? They all conduct heat better than aluminum.



Obviously you've never seen a turbine housing on a rotary after a hard run or two? What temperature do you think high nickel alloy cast steel glows bright orange at?


Pics?



This has GOT to be a trolling attempt by someone who is really bored at work... theres no way anyone could be this retarded.

 

No. Copper tranfers heat more efficiently than aluminium. Why not make a rad out of copper then? Because aluminum working techniques are far more advanced and allow in the end for a better radiator.

 

Dude first off I never said the NHRA knows nothing of performance. I DID say that you building a ROLL CAGE is not anything performance geared. And I am talking about motors now. You havent done ****. Face it.

But basically you stood by and watched someone do the performance work on a motor because hes a close friend of yours and a beer drinking buddy. I know how you Canadians are. If your best friend does something, then (regardless of whether or not you actually did anything) you did it too.

So I miss read the throttle body size. Who gives a ****. Your sure making a big deal about me when all you did was build a roll cage and slap some bondo on a car???

 

dude, you bring it on yourself. That aluminum manifold that delslow posted, he designed and made, and although it doesnt incorporate a lot of the features of the stock one (not knocking it, it looks like sex), its still an awesome bit of work. That is more than I can say about anything you've shown...

And i dont see how you're criticizing others for not knowing materials when you built an "armored vehicle" of aluminum? you make it too easy... and in one night too... what did you do, bend some aluminum sheet-metal for a shell for your soapbox car?

Plus, if aluminum dissipates heat more easily, it also absorbs it more easily and will heat-soak more quickly. Think of what a radiator or intercooler does... it takes the air inside and dissipates the heat to the air outside as long as the outside air is cooler. Now, you have this nice cool air flowing through your intercooler and then passing right past your turbine housing. This thing can get up to 1000*F or more (rotaries run hot, these temperatures have been logged countless times), and is dissipating heat to the air around it. This air is also around the IM, and will heat it up convectively (not to mention the conductive heat transfer through the block). This isnt saying that aluminum is a poor choice, cause its not, but you're giving the wrong reasons for it. Basically, aluminum will change temperature more easily for a given amount of energy when compared to steel or iron or most composites, thus heat-soaking more quickly, providing less insulation for the air inside from the hot engine bay, and ultimately heating the air up more, especially during warm-up. Dont make me break out the heat transfer equations to prove it, cause i wont, i dont care enough :-)

Out of curiousity, what type of welder do you have? please please please post pics of this aluminum armored vehicle, i would love to see this!

I was thinking the same thing about the troll... at least its amusing

 

1: Your hypothesis about who I am and what I do is as accurate as your theory about a 200mm throttle body being a good idea. And no, I won't let that go, its just too funny.

2: An NHRA certified roll cage has many things to do with performance. If designed incorrectly:
a) The car won't be allowed to drive as fast as it does. (because it won't get the certification)
b) The car may dog track
c) The driver might be killed in the event of an accident.

3: Sure, a roll bar that you bolt in your Camaro is there for added saftey, but the "cage" in an 8 second car - is the chassis of the vehicle. Since you obviously don't know this, I figured I'd point it out for you.

4: If you quantify standing around drinking beer with a friend to (BTW he's diabetic and doesn't/can't drink) to porting heads with a die grinder, taking them to be flowed, marking the voids and venturi areas, re-doing, changing the design so it can be replicated with a mill, flowing again, milling, re-flowing and finally installing, clearancing bearings, washing parts then washign again, then washing again in a pan we ran through the dishwasher (dirt can be detrimental on an engine at this level) then - hey - I'm just another drunk Canadian, eh?

5: I'm making a big deal about you coming in, asking questions, getting GOOD and detailed explanations - and then CALLING THE PERSON WHO GAVE THEM TO YOU a hypocrite.

6: You don't know the next thing about rotary engines as evidenced numerous times in this thread alone, so why not take a little advice? I shut up and listen when Bill (the owner of the Firebird) talks to me about nitrous, water injection, and a vast number of other subjects - because I DON"T KNOW EVERYTHING. I know very little in fact. But you are too stubborn to listen - so I bash on you.

Whoop-dee-doo.

And.....aluminum for armor? How'd that work out?

 

I almost lost it laughing there.

Mike's not very quick is he?

 

Hell I am still hung up on the fact that he, just one guy without years of engineering car intakes can do better. The overall engineeering on the 7 is impressive, it took years of hard work to get were it is. yes can it be improved, that depends on what you want as the end result. the stock intakes were designed to cover the greatest area of power curves. Yes you can do something different, but at what trade off. That is up to the driver/builder. The other thing I can say is that you have never been around rotaries. downpipes and turbines not see 1000 degrees. Well that is at idle or zero load. High load on the engine, well it could be double that temp. So when you get pissy and mad that people have called out the bullshit flag go have fun and make your own armoured car. If I used your logic, i rebuilt the whole avonics system of either the hornet or rhino in just about one shift.

 

This is going to be a LONG post...

I must be working too hard, because my reading comprehension sucked on your post. I totally missed the point where this is for a TII and not the NA. That really would have saved me a lot of typing.

The word "ignorant" has a lot of negative connotation in this world, but it's not always a negative. Being "ignorant" on a subject just means that a person doesn't know much about it.

I don't think that anywhere did I discourage you from building your own intake. In fact I even said "Feel free to give it a try". Up until that point in my post I was trying to explain that the Mazda intake is far more then 4 pipes and a throttle body as you had originally stated. The TII intake is less complicated then the NA intake, but shares some characteristics as I will explain below.

As we all know, the TII engine is a 4 port design. There are primary ports on the center iron, and secondary ports on the outer irons. Again, there are 4 intake runners and a 3 blade two stage throttle body.

The single throttle blade opens before the secondary throttles and feeds the primary ports. Again, this keeps airflow and velocity high while making the car very drivable.

Now, the difference between the TII intake and the NA intake is that the TII upper intake does not have the dynamic chamber like the NA. The TII secondary runners draw from a small plenum that is fed by the secondary throttle plates. So we still have the staged throttle setup which also stages the ports, but we don't have the horseshoe shaped runner.

The TII has less port area and less aggressive port timing then the NA as well.

Now it's time for me to complain about your reading comprehension. I go through great pains to make detailed writeups in threads to explain the pictures, and if you don't read the description, then the pictures are worthless. My intake weighs about 4 LBs less then the stock S4 NA intake. I bet that it would be even lighter then the TII intake since the casting for the TII intake seems a bit massive compared to NA, though I have never weighed one.

I would have made it out of aluminum, but I don't have a TIG capable of AC. And I don't have the patience to sit there and gas weld the thing.

Because thin walled steel tube is far lighter then thick walled aluminum casting.

Again, if you head done the reading, you would have seen that I didn't make those welds. The original plan was to TIG weld the intake but with all the tight spaces and no desire to cut all the tacks and disassemble the thing, we decided to MIG weld it instead. That night I was at CP Racing wiring up a Supra, so Chris MIG'ed while I was busy. In order to avoid burn through on thin walled tubing (have you ever MIG'ed 16 gauge?) a series of short tacks at low current must be made rather then a continuous bead. We also welded it in the "TIG style" to fool the untrained eye. Had we run a bead, there would have been so much droop through that I would have spent weeks grinding it all out again.

Regarding my welds in general, I have certainly made some bad ones. Like a lot of skills, welding is something that needs to be taught and practiced. My early welds were not very pretty, but we're talking 5 years or so ago. I've had a lot of practice since then, and I've never been afraid to post picture of unfinished work (including unfinished welds). Funny thing is that I have been pimping my car over the past few days to all those wanting to see it and have received nothing but compliments on my FCAW and TIG welding. Many of these compliments from machinists with more then a few years in the industry (several of them about to retire).

First, I was under the impression that you wanted to build an ideal intake for an NA. In which case it's hard to beat the Mazda intake design.

2nd, if you had read the thread, you would have seen that my engine is not a stock port engine. My engine is bridgeported. In a high overlap engine, all this intake tuning goes out the window in the sense that you have virtually no intake pulses to work with as the intake ports don't actually close. So as it states in the thread, I built the intake to replace the stock NA intake because a straight runner design is more suited to a radical port job.

3rd, an intake is not just one pipe going to 4, or four pipes into one, or however you want to say that. Do you think that the size of these pipes is arbitrary? At the end of my thread you will find a link to rotarygod's informative thread on calculating runner and plenum size. I used some basic rules from an intake design book I got from the library.

To me, this shows you have no fabrication experience. I don't even know where to begin....With the right tools, a manifold can be cut down to a few days work after the initial design calculations are done. By right tools, we are talking about things like a mill, drill press, CNC machine, etc. Keep in mind that I built my manifold with hand tools. It took about a month to make, but did not occupy a month's worth of time. Get what I mean?

For example, let's look at the first few posts and examine the throttle body flange. To create that, I had to first drill the 3" hole with a hole saw and hand drill. Took two batteries on the cordless drill to get the hole and about half an hour of drilling. Then then was the deburring. Since the drill batteries were dead, I had to wait until the next day to drill and tap the bolt holes. Then the flange had to be cut off the bigger plate with a jigsaw and the edges ground straight.

If I had a CNC machine, I would just cut the part out after drawing it in CAD. Actually water jet would be a better choice but whatever.

A more intricate part is the upper to lower manifold flange, which I did have water-jet cut.

There's 4 hours of solid welding to finish it off. Then there's the grinding, port matching, sanding, wire brushing and painting.

Clearly you've never built a part like this before.

Here's where you are dead wrong and your attitude needs a major adjustment. It was never my intention to make you sound dumb. Not everyone in the world is trying to take you down and insult you. Some of us are just trying to teach.

Honestly I was going to reply to the rest of the thread but I don't see the point. It's now 6:36PM, 1 hours after I started replying to this thread. Got distracted when a friend came into the shop and we had one of our typical conversations. Other people have basically covered what I was going to say, so there's no sense repeating.

I encourage you to build you own intake manifold. Get some material from the library, read up on design and fluid mechanics. Then post a thread showing the details of the build. I for one love to see fabrication, as many other people do.

 

Technically, copper *absorbs* heat much better than aluminum, but aluminum *dissapates* heat much better than copper. This is why many computer processor heatsinks will use a solid copper base on top of the CPU to absorb the heat directly off of the processor, then the aluminum has a larger surface to pull and disappate heat from.

Hmmm...I wonder. How about a radiator with copper pipes and aluminum fins? Seems simple enough. Heck, maybe they're like that already.

 

^care to explain why the best CPU coolers are 100% coper then?

 

WTF else are they going to do with the old penny's?