ERAUMAZDA

FC3S.Org offers treating to housing. 100 dollars is kinda steep for each housing. If it was 50 dollars per housing I woudn't mind. Anyway, is it worth it and does it make a big difference.

mightymouse0x

the housing? i wouldnt worry about it, i was reading up on it awhile ago, and i would only do it to parts that would break under extreme use. all it does is it make it stronger. i think the housing is strong enough already, and there are better things to get done then spending $100 for each housing

bingoboy

i believe cryo treating would be to make the engine pieces stronger so they could support the higher rpm's on a heavily ported/built engine.

Rizla+

I would love to have MUCH more info on this treatment. As I'm working with materials and heat treatments I'm wondering what exact effect this would have on parts. By info I mean hard data, not just the "I beleive that ...." sort of things.

Liquid Anarchy

iTrader: (2)

Cryo is pretty much for wear. Things that have been cryo-treated take longer to wear than non-treated things.

A place locally does cryo-treating. Check out www.cryo-pro.com for any info.

ERAUMAZDA

link doesn't work

Liquid Anarchy

iTrader: (2)

www.cryopro.com even

Rizla+

I really do not trust those sites and mostly feel like they are full of BS.
I talked with the metallurgist here at work. He is basically saying that this treatment is totally dependent on the kind of material. Does someone know what material is used for our housing, side-plates and eccentric shaft ? He is also saying that yes it would improve hardness but will also increase brittleness of the part. As I said it is all dependent of the internal composition of the material. It might also create internal micro-fissures which is really not good for fatigue if done to an improper type of material. What parts do people usually get this treatment done to and what exact kind of material are they made of ?

Liquid Anarchy

iTrader: (2)

Trust who you will, those are the guys I'm taking my apex seals, and other little tidbits to. They've also treated the entire keg of another local. No brittleness, no fissures, just blown, alcohol FC.

deadRX7Conv

Problem with any professional is they don't always like change.
Heat treating works.
Cryo works.
Vibration works.

Tell your metallurgist to go back to school. Doesn't his profession have continuous ed/CEUs......?

Pigheaded professionals hold back progress.

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

I'm guessing on this.
I saw it on history channel about metallurgy(sp?) and sword making.

From what I understand they heat the metal up and then quickly cool it. Which traps some molecules in between the metal condensing it and making a stronger more compact metal.

They explained it with the example of swords which you saw them dumping them in water after forging because it quickly contracts trapping molecules(another metal or something) inside the metal(steel or bronze or something).

I guess cryo would be a way to contract it extemely giving it a more dense makeup.

Feel free to point anything out which is wrong. I'm making a hypothesis from what I've seen on the almighty never wrong TV.

fc3s.org

This is what I found on it. We have pulled apart engines with hard use (dune buggy's) and found zero wear after a whole season of use in the desert.

------------------------------------------------

When metal is initially formed at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature the atoms & molecules are disorganized and there are weak particles in the metal called Austenite, these are actually large unstable particles of carbon.

What cryogenic processing does is to convert these weak and unstable carbon particles into Martensite, which are very strong and stable carbide particles. This transformation takes place the same way that regular carbon (which is soft and weak) is converted into diamonds, which is the hardest most durable material know to man. IT TAKES VERY EXTREME PRESSURE! Diamonds are pure carbon, however they have perfectly aligned carbon atoms!

In Cryogenic Processing the EXTREME PRESSURE comes from the physics of freezing to 300 degrees and the resultant contracting of the metal. This contraction, which would also happen under extreme pressure, forces the atoms & molecules to align and fit together tightly.

Once the metal warms back up to atmospheric temperature and pressure the molecules return to their normal spacing however now they are now highly organized, forming one virtually continuous strength piece of metal without the stress spots and weak particles that were in the metal prior to Cryogenic Processing.

Under a microscope you can actually see that the surface of the metal has become much smoother. This smoothing greatly reduces friction (which greatly reduces heat) and increases the resistance to wear of the metal up to 300%.

Cryogenic Processing works for virtually all kinds of metal or metal alloys and some plastics such as nylon.
Cryo'ing metal golf clubs will increase your driving distance up to 15 yards.
Cryo'd Golf club heads have a greatly enlarged Sweet Spot and that means grater accuracy for your drives.
Cryo'ing Golf ***** average a 10 yard increase.
Cryo'd razor blades stay sharp twice as long.
It dramatically increases the tonal quality of brass and metal Musical instruments.
Target shooters Cryo their gun barrels to virtually eliminate heat deformation and increase accuracy.
Motorsports racing enthusiast have their engines, drivetrains, & suspension parts Cryo'd to increase strength by up to 50% and can double the life of engine & drivetrain parts that are subject to wear and fatigue.
Wood Workers, Machine shops, and Plastics fabricators, Cryo their cutting blades and bits to typically increase as much as 2 to 3 times the amount of material cut before having to re-sharpen or replace their blades and bits.
Cryogenic processing is a one-time process that lasts for the life of the item.
Cryo'd metals can be machined or sharpened as much as you have cutting tip or edge and will retain all the improved properties throughout their life.
If you are going to do any Heat treating, nitriding or other massaging of the metals you should do them first and cryo afterwards to clean up any inconsistancies or stresses in the metal that the other treatments may have caused.
You should expect around a 30% to 50% increase in Strength and around double the life for all Cryo'd metal items that are subject to wear and double the resistance to fatigue!

Rizla+

Hey, I did not said I was right or wrong, I'm just looking for facts And no one really answered my question : What parts do people usually get this treatment done to and what exact kind of material are they made of ?

fc3s.org

Our most common requested parts for cryo when doing an engine rebuild are the housings and the internals, ie springs and seals. Those parts are for the most part steel, but there is some carbon material in the apex seals, and possibly other parts as well, but that is pretty well kept internal to Mazda, as I have never had a metal breakdown offered on any of the internal parts before.

banzaitoyota

Cryo treating is MOST EFFECTIVE when all components of the engine are treated. Only doing the APEX's will accelerate housing wear. Only doing housings will accelerate APEX SEAL wear. IT is a TOTAL concept, not a piecemeal effort

ERAUMAZDA

So a rebuilt engine will take longer to brake in then?

ERAUMAZDA

im mean break in.

Rizla+

I've looked a bit more deeper into this. First I must say that Austenite and Martensite are only found in carbon based alloys and ferrous materials (steels). So considered the explanation given from many web sites and here, it is quite hard to beleive that other materials such as copper or nylon would beneficiate from this treatment. I agree that when steel is heat treated (converting austenite to martensite), a small amount of austenite is still present in the alloy. Thus bringing it to cryogenic temperatures would transform this residual austenite. Fine, make sense. I also looked on some other aviation forums and the subject is discussed more than I tought, the only thing is that this process is still not accepted by the FAA for use on aviation engines (hmmm, strange isn't it) and there is also a lack of regulations and standard practices. If it's been around since the 50's, why is it that there is not any more extended use of it ? I'm also worried about the chromium plating on the side plates. As the majority of you should know, different material have different coefficients of expension, so might lead to some problems when exposed to extreme variations of temperature. Another thing, I'm working in a compagny that is making fasteners for planes and turbine engines. Quality control is something very important and there is a lot standard practices and regulations concerning quality systems (ISO/AS/NADCAP...) All of the parts we manufacture are going through heat treatment and even with all this, we recently received a job from which the parts where supposed to be heat treated to 39-43 HRc (mat'l is 4340 steel) and half of them where not properly done ! So I would be a bit worried about sending my parts to a compagny without ANY quality system / control and without ANY way of verifying the work done. I am not trying to says that it is all wrong and should not be used, I am just expressing some of my own concerns. (the comments and statements made heirein are sonely those of Remy and does not necesarry reflect the opinions of the people).
Flame me if you want I don't give a s**t.
Just my .02 cents

RunningDeer

Yeah right... and we all KNOW and TRUST government always look out for our best interest by having the highest standards ever

to each his own

$100T2

iTrader: (1)

There is an FD in this months Import Tuner that has cryogenically treated housings... They say it makes the housings stronger for those running high levels of boost along with large porting jobs... I guess the housings have a history of failure when those two things are combined, therefore it's a good idea if you are running 18 pounds and a big *** streetport like the guy in the mag... He's claiming 445 hp on pump gas, so hey, good for him.

Matlock

The question is can he run that with out cryo treatment and either notice a difference or last as long. It comes down to is it worth it. Beyond the hypothetical.

Rizla+

Well, he is NOT making 445 hp BECAUSE of his cryogenically treated housing... I'm trying to gather more info on this. It seems like a test was previously conducted on cutting tools were I work. I asked the guy in charge of the toolmaking department for more info, if I cannot get a hold of it I'll try talking to my boss about doing a small reseach on it. It is really interesting, seriously, and if the results are as good as they claim, it would be a nice improvement for our company as we do a lot of turning and metal forming.

banzaitoyota

Look at it like this:

You have spent all the money possible on parts and tuning and you have maxxed out your power output. Then its time to Cryo-treat and other treatments to gain the "extra-edge". Special treatments and coatings are not a substitute for proper parts selection, tuning , R&D and assembly. It may sound al" Goly-geewhiz Thats cool" talking about it on the forum and bench racing, but 98% of the people here are not running/building/tuning their car to a level where these treaetments are neccasary.

$100T2

iTrader: (1)

I never said he was making 445 hp because of the cryo... I am implying though, that if you ARE running that kind of power, or are looking to, it might be a good idea... Kinda like how the V-8 guys use 4 bolt mains on their high power engines, while the stock engines use 2 bolt... It's just insurance. I doubt that there is any performance gains, it's just for reliability. Will I get mine done? Maybe, maybe not... I am going to be running a nice sized turbo, but I doubt I will be seeing 18 pounds on pump gas.

banzaitoyota

To be even more blunt: If you aare running a $1200 rebuild YOU ARE WASTING YOUR MONEY ON CRYO-TREATMENTS! IMHO