jhammons01

Guys, This is a long one and it will take some thought and discussion. In the vacuum industry we use cooper o-rings to gain a superior seal for Ultra high vacuum. You can use this CO-R and "bake" out any Molecules at very high temps. The draw back is if you have to take a falnge apart that uses the CO-R you have to use a new one

That's the back ground. Heres the meat. Why can't we use CO-R for our coolant seals?? Seams to me that this is something that would be much more durable than what we are using now. The draw back being if you cracked your motor open you would have to replace the CO-R. A CO-R would be so much more durable than current methods. Even if you over heated your motor and the fron iron cracked at that thin spot a CO-R would still hold and would not blow outwards.

Does anybody know of a reason why this would not work??? Am I over looking some fundemental??

Patman?
Ice?
RRR?
Karack?
dDub?
Plague?

banzaitoyota

Day late and a lot of $$$$ short.

I had a set of Helical Style O-Rings made last year. Basically an inconel Spring with a SS Liner coated in pure silver. They work GREAT, but they cost ~ 150.00 EACH.

jhammons01

there ya go!! Right on. Why the exotic materials?? Can you explain?? How many miles do you have on the Motor?

jhammons01

Banzai, I read from a website (did a google search on inconel seals) where that type of material is used for furnace doors etc. Corrosion resistant for marine uses. Withstands temps up to 500F. Where did you learn about that, do you work in the furnace industry??

BlaCkPlaGUE

Interesting. I don't see a problem with it really, other than finding an o-ring that is first off the exact thickness that you want to achieve. Cause if its slightly to thick, you won't seal the intake, and then you got a vacuum leak.
How would you measure it out?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Does the copper allow for movement? Remember, the aluminium housings and iron plates expand at different rates. Also, do the tension bolts provide enough force to properly compress the copper?

Just a few thoughts...

But honestly, the rubber rings that Mazda has been using forever work well in almost all circumstances (just don't overheat).

jhammons01

Wire makers can achieve very tight tolerances. The O.D could be acheived. You wouldn't be expected to measure the Rings as they would have to be bonded. So We would order them to the exact demensions to fit in the grooves.

jhammons01

The metals are close in thermal expansion. But I don't know for sure. The tension bolts were a concern for me as well, not to mention pulling them at the threads from the front Iron.

Sorry, but I don't agree that the o-rings are sufficient. We see tons of "white smoke" threads here. At least two per day. There has to be something better.

RETed

Better, yes.
Cheaper, highly doubtful.

I use the McMaster-Carr inners, and for $10 / each, they are CHEAPER than the Mazda OEM pieces.
I don't expect perfection, but they are stronger than the Mazda OEM units.
I don't expect these things to handle a broken water jacket though...

A broken water jacket is a broken water jacket.
Asking the "o-ring" to handle a catastrophic failure such as that is almost always going to be expensive.
It's not the "o-ring"'s fault - it's the housing casting that is bad / faulty.

How about redesign new castings?

I was going to pull a trick from the Honda open-deck block guys and "sleeve" the water passages, but this is a royal pain in the *** and you need to make a bazillion different pieces due to great Mazda manufacturing tolerances. :P


-Ted

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

they should have just made the coolant jackets thicker and had better fitment to their lathes, thicker o-ring walls would cure 95% of the seal failures.

GUITARJUNKIE28

how aboutthe rotary aviation o-rings?

anyone ever hear of them blowing out?

banzaitoyota

I work in the DOE Nuclear Complex. One of my projects was a vessel use to seperate isotopes of Hydrogen. We cycled the temps on the vessel very rapidly and continiously. Why the exotic materials? They work

dag

Hey banzaitoyota, I followed the progress and subsequent use of your o-rings and was curious as to wether or not you've been able to test wether or not your o-rings are re-usable? Thanks.

rs_1101

i think the real question here is definitly whether copper would be able to rebound from daily temerature changes, including metal expansion/shrinking. i think its a fine idea though, and it doesnt take much to get it to crush properly, and im sure that by using a metal-metal bond, there are a few good products out there to make the copper o rings seal better.

oregano

iTrader: (1)

i wondered this from day one when i learned our engines were sealed with o rings:S

GUITARJUNKIE28

i thought about this one a few years ago, but the idea faded away when i quit overheating my car

it'd be some kind of metal (i was thinking aluminum at the time), but a hollow section in the center to allow for proper crushing and also expansion and contraction.

may or may not work...

banzaitoyota

AA bit of history, While I was at the Factory where my Seals were being designed produced, they have one of the old retired gentleman who was with the company in the early seventies. He walked into the area we were working at one day (he stops in every so often to "check up" on the young engineers); he saw me and the hoousings/irons I had brought up to measure. He then asked if MAZDA was interested in their seals, Again? The Design Engineer I was working with asked him: "What do you mean aggain?. Turns out in the early seventies Mazda had approached them about the coolant O-ring seals and they had made a bunch of prototypes for them. Even back then the deciding factor was the cost vs. benefit factor.

jhammons01

SSSEEEEE!!!!! I knew it!! Banzai, I smelled research all over your first post. That is why I asked for more about the exotic materials.

Note for all you wanna be engineers, Look outside of your little corner of the world and you'll find a cure for your troubles. What may be cutting edge tech for your industry may be 'old hat' for another. I learned this by being in sales, I go from one lab to another, from one industry to the next, I see all the different ideas and technologies......but not anywhere near all of them. My pie is a very very thin slice.

I felt that there must be a better sealing technology out there than a durometer (rubber) o-ring. I just wanted to ask around and see if somebody had more experience with this than I did. The only thing we have to do is wait for Banzai to drive his current motor for 15 years and 120K miles to get the data........****.

Banzai, could you re-produce the inconel o-rings??

Cost is a factor but if they were mass produced the cost would come way down. Any wire maker (and there are a ton of them out there) can make this o-ring.

Thermal expansion is already described by Banzai and the research they did at the DOE=succesful sealing properties.

Basically a fancy color brochure and a part number is all that is needed.

GUITARJUNKIE28

could i buy a set like yours and try them out?

jhammons01

See Banzai, OUR first customer has arrived!

J/K

Parastie

There have been a few posts of problems with these, but it mostly appears to be a fitment issue.

Metal seals shouldn't have such a fitment issue, they'll either fit or not.

jhammons01

Your right, a metal seal should drop in the groove.

banzaitoyota

Bulk pricing on the "BANZAI-Seals" did not cure the cost issue.

Parastie

If a set is under $300 I'd consider it.

jhammons01

"Banzai Seals" the name is a done deal.

Banzai, you said they were $150 ea. Is that $150 each Inner $150 each outer X 4 ??? $1200 for a 13B???