2nd Generation Specific (1986-1992) 1986-1992 Discussion including performance modifications and technical support sections.

Break into the 13s, get your Microtech free

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Old 05-13-03 | 08:18 PM
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Borderline thread for being moved to the group buys...

I'll let it sit for now as no one has complained yet, but in the future Ray and Brandon, threads selling something or for group buys need to be in group buys or the for sale/ wanted section.
Old 05-13-03 | 08:21 PM
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I don't know, I think this thread's better off here, the other thread they posted would've been key to being moved. But this is more a technical challenge, seems a little more well placed being here. Anywho, how exactly does the fuel curve work on this, is it programmable by preset load points only, or is it set by entering in the specific pressure?
Old 05-13-03 | 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by Icemark
Borderline thread for being moved to the group buys...

I'll let it sit for now as no one has complained yet, but in the future Ray and Brandon, threads selling something or for group buys need to be in group buys or the for sale/ wanted section.
We completely understand the reasoning! We felt this topic was more of a challenge to the na crowd. of course it can help us sell more units but our intentions are purely meant to inspire those who may be interested in the challenge. we will take all measures not to solicit where it is not wanted! :-)

Ray
Old 05-13-03 | 08:44 PM
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ray,

I felt that is what you really meant.

Thanks for understanding
Old 05-14-03 | 12:14 AM
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I have an inkling that this thread will get talked about for a while... but nothing good will come of it.
Old 05-14-03 | 12:27 AM
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Brandon, if we break 13's with the stock ECU, and are considering a microtech from you, what could be worked out? As logn as the car is within the rules so far.

And does the car have to have an exhaust? (next time I go to the track Im running open headers)
Old 05-14-03 | 12:29 AM
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I really do hope not. Guys have been talking about getting an N/A into the 13s for a while now, and I really want to see it happen. That's why we decided to actually put some money on the line. Hopefully that'll provide the impoetus necessary to make it happen.

Brandon
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Old 05-14-03 | 12:30 AM
  #58  
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One more q, any limitation on exhaust porting?
Old 05-14-03 | 12:36 AM
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Well, no exhaust would be against the "spirit" of the competition (think streetable), but I guess it's within the letter.

As far as the stock ECU stuff, well, we're trying to get people pumped about the Microtech here! We're pumped about it, and are interested to see just how much difference getting rid of that piece of crap stock ECU can make on an N/A... 'cause it's a WORLD of difference on a TII... you'll certainly get our congratulations, tho!

And nope, exhaust porting is open.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
Old 05-14-03 | 12:41 AM
  #60  
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Damn..I definately cant buy a MT for my GTU any time soon. The TII comes first(REW swap in 89 TII), and I still need an EMS and tilton clutch, and some misc stuff. If I could get my car running right, Im sure I could break into 13's, but the stock ECU doesnt approve of my motor...
Old 05-14-03 | 12:53 AM
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Don't missunderstand me...

People will always be after the 13-second mark w/ N/A RX-7's. But how many are willing to put a standalone on an N/A car just for 13's?

We'll just have to see how this turns out... a post is in order...
Old 05-14-03 | 01:20 AM
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okay a few questions, how can you tell if an n/a actually ran in the 13s? further more how can you tell that there car is within the rules, even with a video you couldn't tell if the diff gears where stock...

also can you run non stock rims like 13" steelies, light wieght and increases your gear ratio... i'd really like to know how you regulate this....
Old 05-14-03 | 01:30 AM
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How many people are willing to put an S-AFC and an MSD on their car? Now add on the ability to completely eliminate the AFM, and go with any manifold setup you can dream up.... Plus, the LT8 isn't near the bear an E6K is to get up and running very well. Seriously - I did two installs last weekend, and they both fired right up, and are both running beautifully. I was shocked at just how well they ran on the base map. And on top of that, you get all the benefits of a standalone like a new harness, proper control of the ECU, etc, etc.

Anyway, we seriously feel it's worth the cost, especially when compared to the various piggybacks available... you just can't beat it.

Brandon
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Old 05-14-03 | 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by BlackRx7
okay a few questions, how can you tell if an n/a actually ran in the 13s? further more how can you tell that there car is within the rules, even with a video you couldn't tell if the diff gears where stock...

also can you run non stock rims like 13" steelies, light wieght and increases your gear ratio... i'd really like to know how you regulate this....
Well, we're not the NHRA As far as things like wheels go, well... that's part of making the most of rules. That's what racing's all about! There are things that hint if things are amiss (ex, low traps speeds for a fast et could mean a wierd rearend ratio), but we thought this would be fun, and are hoping that people will be honest. We think the FC community is upstanding enough to keep this thing clean and enjoy it.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
Old 05-14-03 | 02:05 AM
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S-AFC = $275 new-in-box
MSD = $100 used

Microtech = what? at least $600 after shipping, not to include the controller

Don't get me wrong... if I were to use a standalone, I'd use a Microtech; hell, I was 2 days away from getting the LT-8 on the last group buy. But after thinking it over, why use a standalone on an N/A car? Is it worth the $600 for 20hp? You can do a lot better for that hp:cost ratio.

BTW does the Microtech still come with a flying lead harness? All new harness, sure. But you still get the brittle connections everyone has come to know and love.
Old 05-14-03 | 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by Liquid Anarchy
S-AFC = $275 new-in-box
MSD = $100 used

Microtech = what? at least $600 after shipping, not to include the controller
Well, now you're comparing apples and oranges when you compare new versus used. And why do you think people are selling those MSD setups anyway?


Don't get me wrong... if I were to use a standalone, I'd use a Microtech; hell, I was 2 days away from getting the LT-8 on the last group buy. But after thinking it over, why use a standalone on an N/A car? Is it worth the $600 for 20hp? You can do a lot better for that hp:cost ratio.
Honestly, that was spoken like someone who's never felt a single-day, back-to-back difference between the stock ECU and a standalone. They're worlds apart, and moreso than just the power gain. Everyday life improves a LOT... no more vacuum leaks! Tuneable throttle response! Multiple maps for cruising and for power! An empty engine bay! A new, high-quality harness! And most of all, the extreme simplification that the Microtech brings... when stuff breaks, you don't have to guess - you can dive in and fix it.


BTW does the Microtech still come with a flying lead harness? All new harness, sure. But you still get the brittle connections everyone has come to know and love.
You know, this sounds awfully familiar... Anyway, the only stock plugs that really get thrashed are the injector plugs, and those are available through the aftermarket. The other four that you reuse are generally in good condition - next time you have a chance, check your TPS plug or water temp plug... the problems with the stock harness don't come from the plugs, they come from the terrible wiring.

Plus, if you absolutely must replace them, go ahead and go with GM sensors... the Microtech ECUs can do those, too.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
Old 05-14-03 | 04:57 AM
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theres really alot of bollocks running around regarding microtech advantages over others like the haltech... both are speed/density, they use the same inputs, and are both pretty easy to get up and running.

You don't *NEED* to replace all the sensors to run a haltech, it's just recommended, just as it would be with any other standalone. You're dealing with old sensors that are probably near their end of life anyways.... a full range rotary TPS is better than the plunger style on the FC's in either case, and replacing the stock wiring is favorable in either case also.

Then you have the advantage of the flexibility something like the E6K gives you, you have more outputs and inputs, and a much larger community of users to pull knowledge from, like sending a mail to hitman for instance to get a map that already has curves pretty close to your custom setup just because of his vast experience with rotary engines and the haltech systems.

it's pretty annoying how some people are pushing the microtechs like it's the best thing since sliced bread, when it's really nothing amazing or terribly new... E6K's can be had for reasonable prices, especially if you don't get the 3 bar MAP sensor, or other sensors, or the connector kit and just rig it into your stock sensors like alot of people seem to be promoting on the microtechs, and touting as an advantage (lame, that option exists on all systems, it's just the ghetto method)

just my $.02
Old 05-14-03 | 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by pengarufoo
theres really alot of bollocks running around regarding microtech advantages over others like the haltech... both are speed/density, they use the same inputs, and are both pretty easy to get up and running.

You don't *NEED* to replace all the sensors to run a haltech, it's just recommended, just as it would be with any other standalone. You're dealing with old sensors that are probably near their end of life anyways.... a full range rotary TPS is better than the plunger style on the FC's in either case, and replacing the stock wiring is favorable in either case also.

Then you have the advantage of the flexibility something like the E6K gives you, you have more outputs and inputs, and a much larger community of users to pull knowledge from, like sending a mail to hitman for instance to get a map that already has curves pretty close to your custom setup just because of his vast experience with rotary engines and the haltech systems.

it's pretty annoying how some people are pushing the microtechs like it's the best thing since sliced bread, when it's really nothing amazing or terribly new... E6K's can be had for reasonable prices, especially if you don't get the 3 bar MAP sensor, or other sensors, or the connector kit and just rig it into your stock sensors like alot of people seem to be promoting on the microtechs, and touting as an advantage (lame, that option exists on all systems, it's just the ghetto method)

just my $.02

i take it you've never had to jump start a car with a haltech? i'm also under the impression that you've never had to install a haltech or other system on a car with no other support than the supplied instruction book. It appears to me that the larger community of users to pull answers from is more of a support group for people who can't figure them out or are tired with the endless problems the've had getting theirs to run.

I have a question to ask regarding the reliability of the haltech. Last year at a drag race in Gainesville we noticed that every competative team that ran a haltech made sure to bring spare computers while teams running other products had complete faith in their computers ability to last the entire weekend. why would those guys feel the need to backup a componant like that? why should losing a race come down to something like a fried computer? trhough my own experience the haltech e6k is unreliable at best - i've owned one and have tuned them in the past with varying degrees of success.

say all you want about user error, all i know is that i haven't seen a microtech exhibit any kind of catastrophic failure in the albeit short period of time i've been dealing with them. combine the lack of problems with it's ease of use (truly the leading selling point next to price differential) and you can see why the microtech ecu's are now becoming more favorable for rotary applications.

it all boils down to a comparative price advantage for the end user. the Microtech is certainly NOT designed for tuners, they'd be out of a job if they had to rely on installation labor and tuning charges! that job is left to the haltech (think job security). End users can have the computer installed and DRIVING in a day, not a weekend, or a week, but a DAY! experienced car buffs can do it in an afternoon and an experienced tuner can have one in a car and DRIVING in under two hours... we know, we've done it!

so when someone questions the hype regarding microtech i respond by saying the hype is derived from the consumers who are pleased with their results. i'll admit, before i began dealing with microtechs i was skeptical. when brandon approached me about them i argued every point stated in the original quote. the microtech's performance has since changed my mind!

don't get me wrong, the microtech is not as universal as the haltech, that much is certainly true. the advantages come from the intended platforms of use for microtech. it was designed for rotary applications and for the end user.

Ray
BR7 Racing
Old 05-14-03 | 08:07 AM
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dude,
just a question about the microtech:
I have a MT8 on my turbo 7, right? People told me once you tune it, it might go alittle "off" over time.

Well, i personally noticed this! My car is running completely rich and won't even rev anymore.
My question to you: how long have you tuned microtechs for? have you ever expreienced this?

here in australia, microtechs are a cheap alternative for a standalone. But they have good points also, in that i put 170kws to the ground, on std boost and only a bigger turbo!
Old 05-14-03 | 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by [YMMIJ]
dude,
just a question about the microtech:
I have a MT8 on my turbo 7, right? People told me once you tune it, it might go alittle "off" over time.

Well, i personally noticed this! My car is running completely rich and won't even rev anymore.
My question to you: how long have you tuned microtechs for? have you ever expreienced this?

here in australia, microtechs are a cheap alternative for a standalone. But they have good points also, in that i put 170kws to the ground, on std boost and only a bigger turbo!
we have only been tuning microtechs for a few months now and all of our experience has been with the LT series computers. from what i understand of the MT series computers they are a 2D based system. my understanding of their operation is that they function off of a single load map that is corrected via map input, water temp input and air temp input. the problem lies in the fact that the correction values don't account for rpm or throttle position. this lack of load sensing ability causes the single load map to be corrected by the same values independant of rpm or throttle position. i can see how this would eventually lead to the richening of the curve over time as the various temperature sensores begin to reach the end of their service lives. i have no direct experience with this problem and this is an untested hypothesis but i don't see any reason for the computer to increase inj. ms. values without some sensor telling it to do so. the only other explination is that the injector drivers may be of lower quality design and are simply extending their duration longer than the computer is trying accomplish. again, another hypothesis. i'm sure this problem has been worked out in australia and any qualified microtech tuner can better explain what is happening in your situation.

BR7 is only offering the LT series computers because of their proven results.

As for Microtechs being a cheap alternative to a standalone i think you are referring to the MT and not the LT series. The MT series has its obvious drawbacks and the LT has improved on many of them. admittedly, the LT has its own drawbacks, as does any other product in any other market... nothing is perfect :-)

as far as your car is concerned those are some pretty good numbers! no doubt the turbo helped quit a bit by providing more air flow at that particular boost level.

at any rate, if you are still experiencing problems with your MT computer be sure to let me know and i'll see what i can find out for you! if you are interestted in upgrading your unit to LT specs i can put you incontact with a reputable and experienced dealer/tuner/installer in Australia who can help you out. upgrading your unit to LT specs should help resolve your richening problems.


Ray
BR7 Racing
Old 05-14-03 | 12:45 PM
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my car has an e6k, it's not difficult to install, it's actally quite easy on the rx-7... and if I did want to go that route I could have hacked it into the stock sensors, however with the TWM setup it has native support for the rotary TPS... and I wanted to redo all the engine bay wiring entirely, including the chassis non-engine-related wiring so I replaced everything because I can. It's still pretty easy, even with the overkill work.

I know many people running haltech's with no problems, some of which you may know too on this forum (j9fd3s and vosko come to mind)

perhaps the teams you mention who have backup ecu's just have the money available for redundancy, alot of serious racers will have duplicates of everything, not just their ECU... Maybe only the people who were serious about racing were willing to invest in the better ECU, and it's just a coincidence that they'd have backups just because thats their approach to racing? I don't think that statement proves anything with regard to the haltech's reliability, especially in comparison to the microtech. And I don't think you've provided any evidence that shows the haltech is any less reliable than a microtech, or any other aftermarket ecu for that matter.

Have you ever installed a haltech?
Old 05-14-03 | 12:51 PM
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1) One can install an LT8 and have it running very well in two hours. We've done it. I've never heard of anything close to that coming from a Haltech install. Ever.

2) The plugs are pretty pedantic. Don't like 'em? No problem - you can use the GM sensors if you want, just like an E6K install. New pins and everything.

3) Ray's gone back to work, but I'll speak up for him and say yes. He's installed one (successfully) on his old 87 TII (T04b car), and used to get paid to do just that for a local tuner shop here in Tallahassee. It was his job. He speaks from first-hand experience working on a wide range of cars, not just RX-7s.

We're getting OT here - a better place for this direction would be in the Microtech section. Feel free to start up a thread and we can discuss any concerns you might have.

For now, good luck on the 13 sec goal, guys.

Brandon
BR7 Racing
Old 05-14-03 | 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Liquid Anarchy
Is it worth the $600 for 20hp? You can do a lot better for that hp:cost ratio.

How many people have bought a RB, HKS, Apex'i exhaust? MT true duals? Lots of people have, and for lots more money than a Microtech, I'm sure. And their power gains were probably comparable to installing an aftermarket EMS.
Old 05-14-03 | 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by No7Yet
Honestly, that was spoken like someone who's never felt a single-day, back-to-back difference between the stock ECU and a standalone. They're worlds apart, and moreso than just the power gain. Everyday life improves a LOT... no more vacuum leaks! Tuneable throttle response! Multiple maps for cruising and for power! An empty engine bay! A new, high-quality harness! And most of all, the extreme simplification that the Microtech brings... when stuff breaks, you don't have to guess - you can dive in and fix it.



Brandon
BR7 Racing
you are completely wrong here. there are still vacuum leaks, just because it still idles doesnt mean they arent there. and when stuff breaks you do have to guess, because its not the same stuff as everyone else has, its different and new

mike
Old 05-14-03 | 01:11 PM
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There are no vacuum leaks in the conventional sense. You can have vacuum leaks that occur after the throttle plates, but all that does is raise the idle. If you were to bust an IC hose, for example, the car will still run just fine. That's the nature of speed-density systems.

As for the guessing part, well, you sound like you haven't worked with standalones very long. With the MT one input acts on the ECU in documented ways - you don't have have all the wierd interactions that go on with the factory stuff. You can directly monitor sensor readings, and find out exactly how it's effecting fuel or ignition. That's why there's no guessing.

Brandon
BR7 Racing

Last edited by No7Yet; 05-14-03 at 01:14 PM.



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