rs_1101

i like the new turbo + DP.. shiny.. are you using spacers, or bolting the LIM on?

ImprezedRS

i'm going to use a turbo ii intake manifold. I cleaned up the turbo alot and started to polish it but the dremal died. The dremal lasted a really long time considering that it was the original dremal that came out a long time ago when they first hit the stores. But I pick up one of the new Dremal 400xp or somethign like that and will finish that up tomorow.

TitosToy

imprezedrs, when you get the chance can you post some more pics and results of the your job? i'm planning to do the same setup with my n/a using the tII manifolds, ecu, etc. i'm sort of a noob but i'm taking my time to research everything so it'll be easier on me and my rex. all the info i see here is awesome. thanks again guys

sliding_fc

Im going to have to agree with titos, before tonight all i knew was one came turbo'd and another came n/a, i didnt feel i need to post a new thread with how much info is out there. only reason why im looking is cause im getting a free 87 n/a, and would like to put my mr2 down for either an overhaul or for something new. dont get me wrong i understand the basic's of turbo setups and what they need along with understanding the rotary motor. just wanted to say thanks for not killing this post.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

If you want turbo-NA info, read the FAQ. This thread isn't that great really...

F1blueRx7

iTrader: (5)

It's so not great (and been brought back from the dead so many times) That you should go ahead and put the lock on it

totallimmortal

I'm suprised we haven't seen more flaming on this thread since when i search i can find all the info i need. But anyway I'll tell you what i plan on doing as well as a few things you should do but i probably won't since i'm not rich lol, I would first of all go with the tii intake manifolds to avoid the use or the spacer and notching the frame. your best bet might be to try to find a tii that has been wrecked or a bad engine or both. stock turbo port the wastegate, use the stock topmount and tii hood. this is why i say a tii wrecked or parts car would help for all the little things so you don't have to try to find every piece by itself or pay shipping so many times. for the HP number you want i'd use a tii tranny and rear it's argueable wether or not the na drivetrain could handle it but i say no since i've broken NA drivetrain parts with over 100 less hp then you are shooting for. I'm also not to sure what kind of numbers you can expect from the NA ECU but i'm sure it wqould work but it would probably run nbetter and make more power with a standalone but then again thats alot more money. the main reason people say to get a tii is because if you add up the prices for all the parts you should get not the ones you need, you could have bought a tii and done sopme good mods to it, i know you said you can't find one in your area but they can be shipped. But i can't blame you i'm going this route too i\'ve been through alot with my 7 and want to it not get another, besides i like being different and 6 port turbo sure is

F1blueRx7

iTrader: (5)

It's cool to be different and all, but when you are buying a whole parts turbo car, for just a *little* more work you could have a real turbo motor and make better power. I think turbo-n/a guys are really just looking for the laziest way to make something work, rather then doing it right the first time.

Every "engineering" change made to accomidate a turbo on an n/a is a trade off. Notching the frame vs using t2 manifolds, well you need to make some wiring changes for t2 manifolds, and notching the frame could potentially cause structural issues if not done properly and who wants a big dent in their engine bay.

It's a quick fix for a small power adder, nothing more. The time spent in sourcing parts over the internet is enough to make you rip your hair out (I know, I've done it) And by the time you get a parts car you could just swap everything over and have a much cleaner installation.

Ultimately if you are bored, and have the parts avail. already by all means, you've got a great way to add some horsepower (for a small amount of time). tired low compression n/a's are not going to last forever even with a small amount of boost.

The point of this post is give a "two sides perspective" of the positives and negatives of this swap. But since it's a two sides perspective from one mind, it is of course, opinionated. And In my opinion the swap is not cost effective UNLESS you already have access to the parts for cheap, but don't have access to the full swap.

totallimmortal

Well i also like the idea of a higher compression turbo motor, for some reason many people think its bad but its really just a liuttle more sensitive and needs more tuning but ultimately a higher compression motor is gonna make more power at the same boost levels which is another big reason for choosing this setup

F1blueRx7

iTrader: (5)

Oh, your totally correct. However, you need to actually rebuild the engine to take real advantage of this, which includes pulling the motor, and in turn, setting up some sort of engine management to really see the full benefits.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to reorganize and comment on this a little.

You think this is the lazy way? I'll have to say that swapping the TII drivetrain into an NA car is the lazy way. No engineering at all required. Just unbolt the old stuff, bolt in the new stuff, and turn the key. With the multiple writeups and any rotary shop willing to take on the task, it's dead easy. Someone with all the parts available can do it in a day.

You'll make more power per amount of boost on the NA engine then the TII engine. High compression for one thing, and the fact that the NA secondary ports close much later then the TII ports. In a VERY rough way of speaking, it's like running streetported TII ports.

Or just make a manifold from scratch that properly spaces the turbo. That way, you don't need to deal with the spacer, swapping manifolds, or notching the frame.

I don't call making a 15 second NA run mid 12s "a small power adder". And it's certainly not even close to being a quick fix.

Tired low compression TII engines swapped into an NA car aren't goin got last forever even wtih a small amount of boost.

How do I say this nicely? All the points given to support your opinion are wrong. I infer that you have absolutely zero experience with a turbo-NA installation, or the finished result.

F1blueRx7

iTrader: (5)

Ok, I'm going to preface this response with Don't ban me, I'm trying to have a logical discussion.

My Point of view was directed not at you, but directed to people that think just bolting on a turbo and driving off is as simple as that. It's not. Generally speaking the posts in this forum regarding this topic are people that EXPECT a quick fix for a stock slow car.

If you read my second post you'd note that I pointed out higher compression rotors do make power when the project is PROPERLY thought out, planned and executed. Including a rebuild, porting, enginemanagment. FAR more work then the average "turbo your n/a" poster is interested in (or can afford). It is lazy to do a half *** job.

Putting a turbo on a tired n/a motor is half-assed. No where did I say anything about dropping in a turbo2 motor with 150k miles on it. Common sense should dictate, if it's out of the car and you don't know the mileage, compression is low, rebuild it.

Again, it's your opinion that my opinion is wrong. That's about the only real fact here. I've looked into doing this for one of my Rx7's and without proper engine management it's not worth it

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

That's all relative, which is why you're generally missing the point. My 'tired n/a' motor with it's half-assed setup (with 180k miles on it), pushes 406rwhp, with just an S-AFC and a rrfpr, ON the n/a ecu. How long has it lasted? 15k so far, a hell of a lot more than i expected or wanted for how cheap it was.

F1blueRx7

iTrader: (5)

That's definatly impressive. But my point is, I'm not the kind of person that is willing to slap something on not expecting it to last more then 15k miles. If I build a project my goals include reliability, not "Well, lets crank the boost and fuel up, mess with the timing a bit, see what happens, if it blows oh well, I'll just rebuild".

It's just a perspective and another method of modifying a car that happens to be different.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Indeed, but considering the realative low-cost, it's completely understandable. I've got less than $2600 into the entire car (including the car itself & registration/transfer fees), so it's ok for me to go that route. However, running relatively stock boost, you could easily get a reliable setup, I've built quite a few others for various friends/etc running stock boost to moderate (all under 10). Not one has blown a seal or anything, two of them are creeping in on the 30k mark without so much as a hiccup. It all depends on what you start with, and what you actually 'expect', I do agree that people expect WAY too much and for it to be WAY too easy, and set unrealisitic goals or have some idea it'll be as reliable at 15psi as a tII, which just isn't true. But it can be done cheaply and rather easily and reliable, so long as the person knows enough of what they're doing.

F1blueRx7

iTrader: (5)

Couldn't agree more.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

As am I.

But your post was full of misinformation. That helps no one. I can see now how you were referring to many of the posts here, saying that the newbies think it's quick and easy. Your wording is a little confusing, making it sound like ALL turbo NA guys are looking for cheap and easy.

There's no reason to rebuild or port an engine if you don't intend to go past the capacity of the stock ports. Same with the standalone. You can run some decent numbers with just the stock ECU and an S-AFC. I've done it. However, there's a reason I'm going standalone now.

I was making the point that putting in a tired, unknown TII engine is just as as bad as turbocharging a tired NA engine. A J-Spec (usual engine for turbo swappers) is basically a tired, unknown engine.

It's totally worth it. If I ever find them, I have a few time slips that make this very obvious.

totallimmortal

Aaron what did you run? and are you and sonic rat both still running NA drivetrain without probelms?

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I did, not without problems though. Killed a u-joint not too long ago.

KillaKitiie

hows the tranny holding up?and ive read all the faqs in the archive but can anyone point me to anymore info? im going to be rebuilding my s4 short block soon and this sounds very interesting.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

tranny is just the same as it always has been, notchy in 1st, fine in everything else.

White_FC

Transmissions can handle quite a bit of power so long as you don't abuse them.

I killed my S4 n/a tranny when I turbocharged my N/A engine.

I now have a S1 (1979) rx-7 gearbox in my car behind my Jspec engine running 8psi on a microtech.
That is still surviving.. needless to say i've already ordered a TII tranny, but thats still on its way..

Why? because I have launced it _that_ hard yet or done any flat changes.
Having a crappy clutch helps aswell.

did you guys know that the stock 12a pressure plate i've got on the back of my engine didn't slip until I got the stock cat back off? who would've thought..

It's all about how you drive your car.

iceblue

Good choices. and good producs as well. they are both proven to the fullest and it comes to a personal preferance and hey its your car and your imagination you are creating not mine best of luck.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

With an S-AFC, the N/A ecu has been proven to work just fine to 350+rwhp

A narrow bands accuracy is almost useless, a wideband would've been a better choice here.

Single oil cooler is more than sufficient for anything upto 400rwhp

Stock radiator is OK in most minor applications, and an e-fan should only be used if the following are met. Also, an e-fan won't outperform the stock.
A) the original is broke
B) you need room for IC piping/etc
C) new radiator doesn't allow it

Internally they are *NOT* identical. There are benefits and negatives to both, although with a N/A intake, your turbo below WILL hit it still.

If you want a manifold with welds that break after 5k miles, and a turbo that goes through oil seals faster than a tank of gas. Also a wastegate that randomly 'seizes'.

The 86-88 (s4) opens via exhaust BACK pressure, not a 'sensor'. These ports would be removed or wired open in ANY turbo application, simply becauase the actuators will hit any turbo you mount there.

This system won't bolt up to the XS turbo, nor will it fit properly with the stock turbo, the catback will be just fine, the downpipe needs some working.

S5 N/a has 440's. The maximum PSI is relative, it depends on the equipment, fuel, intercooler, turbo, and various other factors. I've been running 19psi on mine without a hickup.

It'd support 4000hp if you treat it right. In a 'drag' enviroment, if you manage to keep the tires from spinning (LSD's are more vulnerable), you WILL break something. I've managed 400hp by having an open diff and tires that spin rather than hook up and 'hop'. Even harsh shifting will break it. That limit is more like ~300.

Any questions?

KillaKitiie

good thing we have you guys here to keep everyone in check! oh and im all ears this whole turbo your na thing is really getting my attention.Sonicrat you say your running 400rwhp? thats amazing and your 13b has 180k? correct me if i got you guys mixed up but damn!!

more info