New billet center ENGINE PLATE.............. by turbosmart
09-10-08, 09:33 PM
#76
Hey guys, to avoid any confusion and speculation here is the official press release from Turbosmart....
Oh, and yes, the product has been designed and manufactured by Turbosmart, so it is not the same as other products out there. Competition is good for the industry as a whole though - think of it this way; the more companies get behind the rotary technology the better for everyone
Product Description
Centre Plate for the 20B triple rotary engine. Manufactured from Billet Aluminium with electroplated wear faces. Currently approved in Australia by ANDRA for use in competition drag racing.
Application
Replacement for factory Mazda part NF01-10-D50D used in 20B engine
Key Features
• 1kg lighter than the factory item
• Built under strict quality control to precise tolerances
• Solid bearing support for high boost and high RPM engines
• Tougher wear face with excellent oil retention properties for side seal longevity
• Increased engine rigidity
• Dry sump compatible
• Direct bearing oil feed or through traditional dowel oil system.
This component has undergone extensive testing on several race cars, including the PAC Performance’s 6-second drag car. The product produced excellent results under all circumstanceses including methanol and the traditional water cooling system.
Manufactured by Turbosmart Pty Ltd
For more info contact 1300 33 55 06
or www.turbosmartonline.com
Oh, and yes, the product has been designed and manufactured by Turbosmart, so it is not the same as other products out there. Competition is good for the industry as a whole though - think of it this way; the more companies get behind the rotary technology the better for everyone
Product Description
Centre Plate for the 20B triple rotary engine. Manufactured from Billet Aluminium with electroplated wear faces. Currently approved in Australia by ANDRA for use in competition drag racing.
Application
Replacement for factory Mazda part NF01-10-D50D used in 20B engine
Key Features
• 1kg lighter than the factory item
• Built under strict quality control to precise tolerances
• Solid bearing support for high boost and high RPM engines
• Tougher wear face with excellent oil retention properties for side seal longevity
• Increased engine rigidity
• Dry sump compatible
• Direct bearing oil feed or through traditional dowel oil system.
This component has undergone extensive testing on several race cars, including the PAC Performance’s 6-second drag car. The product produced excellent results under all circumstanceses including methanol and the traditional water cooling system.
Manufactured by Turbosmart Pty Ltd
For more info contact 1300 33 55 06
or www.turbosmartonline.com
I'd like to know how much (if any) R&D/real world testing has went into the the development of the wear surface area on the plate?
-J
09-10-08, 09:58 PM
#78
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Obviously the details of the R&D are not something that can be fully disclosed on a forum (LOL)... buuut, these plates have been subjected to continuous, high-RPM, high-Boost punishment for the last 8 months. We've had them running in 8, 7 and 6-second drag cars for the better part of the last season, with several car running PBs during the testing time.
Turbosmart has been around for a long time and would not risk putting anything of this caliber on a market without being fully satisfied with the R&D and testing results.
If you're interested in the nitty-gritty details, I suggest calling Turbosmart USA on (760) 727 7610. Ask for Nic.
Turbosmart has been around for a long time and would not risk putting anything of this caliber on a market without being fully satisfied with the R&D and testing results.
If you're interested in the nitty-gritty details, I suggest calling Turbosmart USA on (760) 727 7610. Ask for Nic.
09-10-08, 11:07 PM
#79
Thank you very much for the info. I'll be putting in a call soon.
-J
09-11-08, 12:59 AM
#81
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While aluminum is a lot lighter than steel, the catch is there is a lot more of it in the Turbosmart plate than there is steel in the stock plate, due to the it's lack of internal water jacket passages found in the stock case iron plate.
The Turbosmart plate is the simplest possible design for the plate, making it easy to manufacture but also very strong and less likely to flex less due to the extra material.
The Guru plate uses a more complex two piece design as this allows the for retention of the internal water jacket passges, but still allows the plate to be easily CNC machined from aluminum billets. Done right this design should be atleast as strong as the stock case iron plate but noticably lighter.
The factory cast iron plate is the most complex design, requiring very specialised molds and equipment to make, but is much more cost effective process for mase production of such a complex part, thus the reason the aluminum side plates in the 16X engine will be cast when it becomes available.
The Turbosmart plate is the simplest possible design for the plate, making it easy to manufacture but also very strong and less likely to flex less due to the extra material.
The Guru plate uses a more complex two piece design as this allows the for retention of the internal water jacket passges, but still allows the plate to be easily CNC machined from aluminum billets. Done right this design should be atleast as strong as the stock case iron plate but noticably lighter.
The factory cast iron plate is the most complex design, requiring very specialised molds and equipment to make, but is much more cost effective process for mase production of such a complex part, thus the reason the aluminum side plates in the 16X engine will be cast when it becomes available.
Last edited by TAZ-NZ; 09-11-08 at 01:04 AM.
09-11-08, 11:55 PM
#82
kill it with BOOMSTICK!
Well, no arguments about anything said in the last few posts, especially as casting is the preferred method of doing anything as ornate as a side plate for a rotary where coolant passages are needed, thus bringing me to my question that really hasn't been answered, though asked indirectly a few times: What about extended run time use? The testing done sounds like it was only for about a minute of run time per heat cycle. Would this be a viable solution for a street car or is the lack of internal cooling passages too susceptible to heat damage for long term heat cycles like street use or road course racing?
09-12-08, 01:13 AM
#83
Well, no arguments about anything said in the last few posts, especially as casting is the preferred method of doing anything as ornate as a side plate for a rotary where coolant passages are needed, thus bringing me to my question that really hasn't been answered, though asked indirectly a few times: What about extended run time use? The testing done sounds like it was only for about a minute of run time per heat cycle. Would this be a viable solution for a street car or is the lack of internal cooling passages too susceptible to heat damage for long term heat cycles like street use or road course racing?
09-12-08, 10:00 PM
#84
The Guru plate uses a more complex two piece design as this allows the for retention of the internal water jacket passges, but still allows the plate to be easily CNC machined from aluminum billets. Done right this design should be atleast as strong as the stock case iron plate but noticably lighter.
This is exactly what I'm interested in.
The factory cast iron plate is the most complex design, requiring very specialised molds and equipment to make, but is much more cost effective process for mase production of such a complex part, thus the reason the aluminum side plates in the 16X engine will be cast when it becomes available.
Cast aluminum? Doesn't casting make the metal a little more brittle? I was hoping for a similar process to what Mazda does for the rotor housings. Now this really makes me curious as to how durable the new 16x engine will be under extreme conditions.
Last edited by t-von; 09-12-08 at 10:02 PM.
09-13-08, 01:03 AM
#87
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This is exactly what I'm interested in.
Cast aluminum? Doesn't casting make the metal a little more brittle? I was hoping for a similar process to what Mazda does for the rotor housings. Now this really makes me curious as to how durable the new 16x engine will be under extreme conditions.
Cast aluminum? Doesn't casting make the metal a little more brittle? I was hoping for a similar process to what Mazda does for the rotor housings. Now this really makes me curious as to how durable the new 16x engine will be under extreme conditions.
There is a huge range of aluminum alloys, in fact Ferrari claims it's own secret aluminum alloy is used to cast it's engine blocks. BMW takes it a step further with the Z4 engine block and casts the piston sleaves and water jacket out of aluminum and then casts the rest of the block in magnesium around the central aluminum casting.
I suggest you check out this link: How to make a rotary engine it's in japanese but has engine sub titles.
I think you'll find Mazda has the 16x durablity well in hand.
10-27-08, 02:48 PM
#89
Rotary Freak
On the casting subject.... The method Mazda is using is probably the reason why they took this plate out of production. It is a method being used by a number of small quantity engine builders. Like Ferrari.
The casting process uses a special high density sand type. A negative mould is being made of the housing, then the liquid iron gets poured around it.
When it's hardened, the sand disengages and goes back to normal crystals/minerals.
This is also why they can make such an internally complex part without the need to go physically 'inside' of it to machine it.
This means that the negative mould needs to be formed for every and each part. This is making the casting process so damn expensive for Mazda. Certainly for an engine type that, initially, was only meant for domestic market.
THis just on a side note off course.
I think the bottom line off this discussion is, apart from the all out motor(race) guys is IF theze plates (no matter who makes them) CAN be used on a long lasting street engine... Even if you would just want to rebuild a stock engine.
The casting process uses a special high density sand type. A negative mould is being made of the housing, then the liquid iron gets poured around it.
When it's hardened, the sand disengages and goes back to normal crystals/minerals.
This is also why they can make such an internally complex part without the need to go physically 'inside' of it to machine it.
This means that the negative mould needs to be formed for every and each part. This is making the casting process so damn expensive for Mazda. Certainly for an engine type that, initially, was only meant for domestic market.
THis just on a side note off course.
I think the bottom line off this discussion is, apart from the all out motor(race) guys is IF theze plates (no matter who makes them) CAN be used on a long lasting street engine... Even if you would just want to rebuild a stock engine.
10-28-08, 05:38 PM
#90
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Casting doesn't have to make things brittle, it the depends on the alloy used and casting process, most people thing of cheap pot metal castings when they think of casting being brittle, it's all in the alloy.
10-29-08, 01:11 AM
#91
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Cooling rates make a big difference, but if you don't start with the right alloy nothing you do with it is going make it have the properties you want.
Everything part of the casting process has an effect on the result, alloy, pour tempature, mold material, pressure, cooling rate, you name it, it all has an effect, but how they effect the cast all still comes back to what alloy was used in the case in the first place.
There are whole books written on nothing but the cooling of aluminium castings, and the result properties, but they go far beyond the scope of this thread and are highly technically, I'm no expert on the subject and I wouldn't know where to start in explaining in layman's terms.
Everything part of the casting process has an effect on the result, alloy, pour tempature, mold material, pressure, cooling rate, you name it, it all has an effect, but how they effect the cast all still comes back to what alloy was used in the case in the first place.
There are whole books written on nothing but the cooling of aluminium castings, and the result properties, but they go far beyond the scope of this thread and are highly technically, I'm no expert on the subject and I wouldn't know where to start in explaining in layman's terms.
Last edited by TAZ-NZ; 10-29-08 at 01:20 AM.
11-04-08, 09:12 AM
#92
kill it with BOOMSTICK!
So I think we finally have an answer from Turbosmart's website about the cooling properties of the plate:
ref: http://www.turbosmartonline.com/index.php?id=283
Originally Posted by TURBOSMART 20B
After hours of engine and chassis dyno testing, we believe the cooling provisions in the plate are sufficent to handle road course and street use.
In fact, during testing we found that the plate had excellent heat dispersion properties compared with the factory mazda plates.
In fact, during testing we found that the plate had excellent heat dispersion properties compared with the factory mazda plates.
11-04-08, 11:28 AM
#93
is that rice i smell?
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thats the answer ive been waiting to here, now as soon as i can afford it, alluminum 20b sounds like a great idea for a street car, anyone want to purchase a slightly used kidney to help fund this build? hahaha
11-04-08, 05:31 PM
#95
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So I think we finally have an answer from Turbosmart's website about the cooling properties of the plate:
ref: http://www.turbosmartonline.com/index.php?id=283
ref: http://www.turbosmartonline.com/index.php?id=283
11-08-08, 11:38 AM
#96
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Guru design > Turbosmart design
Like Peejay said, the TS plate is the most simple way to make this part, but it does it without internal coolant flow, which obviously eliminates cooling the side of the combustion chambers. I don't see how that's a good idea. I think the Guru design with the proper coolant flow is better, even though it make not hold as much power as the TS plate.
I've had something similar to Gurus design as well as a few other configurations drawn up in CAD for a while now... but until recently have had no way to manufacture the part. I finish school this winter though, so I'll have some free time to play around with the stuff at work. Which is good because I don't have to pay $4400 to have something like this in my engine.
Like Peejay said, the TS plate is the most simple way to make this part, but it does it without internal coolant flow, which obviously eliminates cooling the side of the combustion chambers. I don't see how that's a good idea. I think the Guru design with the proper coolant flow is better, even though it make not hold as much power as the TS plate.
I've had something similar to Gurus design as well as a few other configurations drawn up in CAD for a while now... but until recently have had no way to manufacture the part. I finish school this winter though, so I'll have some free time to play around with the stuff at work. Which is good because I don't have to pay $4400 to have something like this in my engine.
Last edited by B6T; 11-08-08 at 11:40 AM.
11-17-08, 02:13 PM
#97
That would be the smart option considering an independent party isnt trying to make a buck off of you. I don't mean to imply that turbosmart is ill-intended, but the fact of the matter is that they are in the business of making money, and; as such, advertise their products. They can spew all the qualitative spin they want but until we see something quantitative I think it is everyones best interest to assume that they are not viable for street use, let alone a road course. Espectially considering the importance and frailty inherent in the cooling system of rotary engines.
I agree with you completely while not reading too deep into that statement. But, I think that cost and application certainly factor into that judgement. Some people simply dont need the advantages presented by the Guru piece. Alcohol burning drag engines, in particular, come into mind.
I agree with you completely while not reading too deep into that statement. But, I think that cost and application certainly factor into that judgement. Some people simply dont need the advantages presented by the Guru piece. Alcohol burning drag engines, in particular, come into mind.
Last edited by Narfle; 11-17-08 at 02:17 PM.
11-17-08, 02:48 PM
#98
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True. The Guru design will probably work better for street applications, and the TS part better for race. It's a strength vs. cooling ability trade-off in the end. Either way, rotaries are going to only go faster with either part.
