contracting (in 2004) the ultimate rotary going into an FC - help me design it
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so how much power and reliability can I expect for $250,000 from Downing Atlanta or Mandeville Auto Tech?
And you're serious, it'll cost that much for them to do that? I mean, Ligenfelter does a 1000hp Corvette for like fifty grand, and that's the whole car AND labor if I understand it correctly.
Now PP would be out of the question for reliability or streetability problems? I guess the huge brapping idle like the 787B would get me in trouble with the local law enforcement.
And you're serious, it'll cost that much for them to do that? I mean, Ligenfelter does a 1000hp Corvette for like fifty grand, and that's the whole car AND labor if I understand it correctly.
Now PP would be out of the question for reliability or streetability problems? I guess the huge brapping idle like the 787B would get me in trouble with the local law enforcement.
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Originally posted by Barwick
so how much power and reliability can I expect for $250,000 from Downing Atlanta or Mandeville Auto Tech?
And you're serious, it'll cost that much for them to do that? I mean, Ligenfelter does a 1000hp Corvette for like fifty grand, and that's the whole car AND labor if I understand it correctly.
Now PP would be out of the question for reliability or streetability problems? I guess the huge brapping idle like the 787B would get me in trouble with the local law enforcement.
so how much power and reliability can I expect for $250,000 from Downing Atlanta or Mandeville Auto Tech?
And you're serious, it'll cost that much for them to do that? I mean, Ligenfelter does a 1000hp Corvette for like fifty grand, and that's the whole car AND labor if I understand it correctly.
Now PP would be out of the question for reliability or streetability problems? I guess the huge brapping idle like the 787B would get me in trouble with the local law enforcement.
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Geez, do you want a Corvette or an RX-7?
Anyway, you would get about 600-800bhp out of a 3-rotor on a streetable car running at a somewhat reliable boost level. Their cars have run quite well in endurance racing, and they are probably the two most reliable rotary high-performance shops in the world. Yes, I would budget $250,000 for that project, but they may be able to do it for less. Remember, something like this is going to have composite body panels, a $20,000 transmission, a $10,000 Motec EMS with all the extras, a fully tuned and cc'd custom exhaust, etc. Besides, you said that money didn't matter. You could also step down one level to the mainstream rotary performance shops like PFS and Pettit, who could probably build you a very nice show-quality 3-rotor FC or FD for about $100,000.
Attached is a pic of a Mandeville RX-7.
Anyway, you would get about 600-800bhp out of a 3-rotor on a streetable car running at a somewhat reliable boost level. Their cars have run quite well in endurance racing, and they are probably the two most reliable rotary high-performance shops in the world. Yes, I would budget $250,000 for that project, but they may be able to do it for less. Remember, something like this is going to have composite body panels, a $20,000 transmission, a $10,000 Motec EMS with all the extras, a fully tuned and cc'd custom exhaust, etc. Besides, you said that money didn't matter. You could also step down one level to the mainstream rotary performance shops like PFS and Pettit, who could probably build you a very nice show-quality 3-rotor FC or FD for about $100,000.
Attached is a pic of a Mandeville RX-7.
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actually the "cheap" way out would be to find one of the ex-imsa cars and fix it up. you could probably find the car for under 40k and spend another 20 fixing it
mike
mike
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Re: contracting (in 2004) the ultimate rotary going into an FC - help me design it
Originally posted by Barwick
In the Winter of 2003 I'm going to be contacting a few rotary building companies, including Racing Beat, Mazdatrix, and SDJ Motorsports (and probably others) and "contracting" them to build me the best combination of ultra-high power and reliability (for a few years hopefully), and of course a little bit of street drivability (has to have some power down low).. with no limit on the expense of the whole system.
Now, I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it to a 20B, because.. well... because..
I need your guyses help to tell me what sort of things I should be looking into. Mild street port, big street port, bridge port, peripheral port (yeah!!!), whatever. What type of apex seals (3-piece, 2-piece, 1-piece (do they make these?), carbon, steel, ceramic, etc.. any aftermarket forged internals that might exist, what turbo to slap onto it, what fuel system, what computer, I mean.. we're building a whole car here.
In the Winter of 2003 I'm going to be contacting a few rotary building companies, including Racing Beat, Mazdatrix, and SDJ Motorsports (and probably others) and "contracting" them to build me the best combination of ultra-high power and reliability (for a few years hopefully), and of course a little bit of street drivability (has to have some power down low).. with no limit on the expense of the whole system.
Now, I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it to a 20B, because.. well... because..
I need your guyses help to tell me what sort of things I should be looking into. Mild street port, big street port, bridge port, peripheral port (yeah!!!), whatever. What type of apex seals (3-piece, 2-piece, 1-piece (do they make these?), carbon, steel, ceramic, etc.. any aftermarket forged internals that might exist, what turbo to slap onto it, what fuel system, what computer, I mean.. we're building a whole car here.
"Power down low" with driveability and reliability is no problem. With no internal engine modification and using the stock turbos, I'm getting 478 lb/ft of torque. You'll find it quite adequate.
According to the folks at Kudzu Racing, a mild street port and a big turbo will get buckets of power that they have proven reliable in 24-hour enduro events. Peter said that a certain amount of porting is necessary to get the full benefit of the big single turbo.
For engine management, Peter has used twin Electromotive Tec IIs on my car and the Black Car. The new Tec III will handle a 20B, without needing a second unit. Since Electromotive is right across the street, you can be sure that the car will be optimally tuned.
Peter uses 2-mm seals pointing out that they have been reliable, even in his 28-psi drag motor. FWIW, Peter said that, based on testing with my car, 1000 hp would be a reasonable goal for a 20B done to the specs of his drag car (includes a 100-shot nitrous).
Hope all that helps.
Last edited by Attila the Fun; 09-13-02 at 12:50 AM.
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Originally posted by fdracer
evil, what kind of apex seals does mandeville use?
evil, what kind of apex seals does mandeville use?
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I think I'd be content with 700-800 with a moderate amount of boost if that's what it takes to keep the engine reliable. "only" 800 hp.. heh.. that's good enough for me.
Now, where is PFS? Or who should I take it to to get this done? I'd LIKE to be able to do some work on it myself alongside them also (it IS my car after all).
Only reason I balked at the $250,000 is because that's like Ferrari land. If $250,000 got me like 1200hp, sure I'd go for it.
Now, where is PFS? Or who should I take it to to get this done? I'd LIKE to be able to do some work on it myself alongside them also (it IS my car after all).
Only reason I balked at the $250,000 is because that's like Ferrari land. If $250,000 got me like 1200hp, sure I'd go for it.
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Originally posted by Barwick
I think I'd be content with 700-800 with a moderate amount of boost if that's what it takes to keep the engine reliable. "only" 800 hp.. heh.. that's good enough for me.
Now, where is PFS? Or who should I take it to to get this done? I'd LIKE to be able to do some work on it myself alongside them also (it IS my car after all).
Only reason I balked at the $250,000 is because that's like Ferrari land. If $250,000 got me like 1200hp, sure I'd go for it.
I think I'd be content with 700-800 with a moderate amount of boost if that's what it takes to keep the engine reliable. "only" 800 hp.. heh.. that's good enough for me.
Now, where is PFS? Or who should I take it to to get this done? I'd LIKE to be able to do some work on it myself alongside them also (it IS my car after all).
Only reason I balked at the $250,000 is because that's like Ferrari land. If $250,000 got me like 1200hp, sure I'd go for it.
PFS is in Manassas, VA.
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So where can I get one of those old IMSA cars? Are they tube frame 3rd gens with 20B's in 'em? I'd love to get my hands on one. Maybe I'll contract them to build one and somehow get it on the street.
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Originally posted by Barwick
I think I'd be content with 700-800 with a moderate amount of boost if that's what it takes to keep the engine reliable. "only" 800 hp.. heh.. that's good enough for me.
I think I'd be content with 700-800 with a moderate amount of boost if that's what it takes to keep the engine reliable. "only" 800 hp.. heh.. that's good enough for me.
BTW, you do realize that you will need quite a bit of professional driving lessons to keep from killing yourself with that much power, right?
Originally posted by Barwick
Now, where is PFS? Or who should I take it to to get this done? I'd LIKE to be able to do some work on it myself alongside them also (it IS my car after all).
Now, where is PFS? Or who should I take it to to get this done? I'd LIKE to be able to do some work on it myself alongside them also (it IS my car after all).
http://www.pfsupercars.com/bdypags/m...ultimedia.html
Originally posted by Barwick
Only reason I balked at the $250,000 is because that's like Ferrari land. If $250,000 got me like 1200hp, sure I'd go for it.
Only reason I balked at the $250,000 is because that's like Ferrari land. If $250,000 got me like 1200hp, sure I'd go for it.
I have a feeling that you don't quite understand how much things really cost. You will learn, young one.
Originally posted by Barwick
So where can I get one of those old IMSA cars? Are they tube frame 3rd gens with 20B's in 'em? I'd love to get my hands on one. Maybe I'll contract them to build one and somehow get it on the street.
So where can I get one of those old IMSA cars? Are they tube frame 3rd gens with 20B's in 'em? I'd love to get my hands on one. Maybe I'll contract them to build one and somehow get it on the street.
http://www.improvedtouring.com/Classifieds/index2.cfm
http://www.downingatlanta.com/da_forsale_new.htm
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i've seen old imsa cars in hemmings too.
thats a good point guys, 300rwhp in an fc makes a really fast street car....
mike
thats a good point guys, 300rwhp in an fc makes a really fast street car....
mike
#46
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Originally posted by Node
How about the scoot engine setup, but 20b
secondary p-port, a large BB turbo, seperate throttlebodies for the pport and primaries, i could go on and on.
How about the scoot engine setup, but 20b
secondary p-port, a large BB turbo, seperate throttlebodies for the pport and primaries, i could go on and on.
Say you got a 20b rebuilt with peripheral housings. Then you built an inlet manifold to have a shutter valve on the secondary inlet runners that fed the PP. You wouldnt need an entire TB assembly, there's a company near me that makes an electrically controlled valve for dual exhausts.
All you would do then is back out a signal from the ECU at a predetermined load/rpm point that opened the valves. Obviously the car would get a sh$tload louder but it's no different to having to shut up an open wastegate on the street.
-pete
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Barwick have you contacted any of the companies mentioned. I would think with a project of this magnitude it would be best to get their advice. Even the most experienced people here can give you just a theory on what you should do. You seem to want to take your project further than anyone has taken a street driven 20b. The companies everyone is telling you about probably could give you more insight. Even if you are not contracting until '04 I think now is the time you need to build a relationship with your engine builder.
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Originally posted by RETed
"700-800hp" streetable?  Yeah, right.  I'd like to see your Pro Driving license please?
-Ted
"700-800hp" streetable?  Yeah, right.  I'd like to see your Pro Driving license please?
-Ted
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Originally posted by Barwick
yes I race cars on a real race track, I understand these things. By the time the car comes back to me in 2005 I'll have 3 years racing experience and should be able to keep it from swapping ends every other time I step on the gas.
yes I race cars on a real race track, I understand these things. By the time the car comes back to me in 2005 I'll have 3 years racing experience and should be able to keep it from swapping ends every other time I step on the gas.
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*sigh*
yes, I understand these things. You don't need to lecture me (the person who usually lectures other people about overpowered cars).
Look, I'm still learning. I'm going to have probably a Z06 or something of that nature before I get this car. If not, I might just have a 400hp FC buildup before then.
Like I said I'm still learning. I've watched a guy who raced an ITA RX-7 for a few years go from his car to a 700hp full tube-frame GT-1 car on a 2 1/2 car wide track at full throttle on slicks in the rain to do a sound check. It *can* be done, okay? I don't need a lecture on this.
yes, I understand these things. You don't need to lecture me (the person who usually lectures other people about overpowered cars).
Look, I'm still learning. I'm going to have probably a Z06 or something of that nature before I get this car. If not, I might just have a 400hp FC buildup before then.
Like I said I'm still learning. I've watched a guy who raced an ITA RX-7 for a few years go from his car to a 700hp full tube-frame GT-1 car on a 2 1/2 car wide track at full throttle on slicks in the rain to do a sound check. It *can* be done, okay? I don't need a lecture on this.