TMadlem84

So (WITH SEARCHING) I have found that a DIY 20B conversion runs around $10k depending on what you get. I've also read that a shop will charge $30-40k to do the conversion. That's a (here come my expert math skills) 20-30k difference. Is there THAT much time involved? I understand it is not a weekend project... but how much time is really involved in this job? A couple of months for the DIY (assuming you don't have to wait for parts)?

I've never swapped a smaller engine for a larger one, but I have helped my dad replace engines (replace a bad engine with the 'same' working one). I've also talked to guys who have 'upgraded' the engine in their rice-rocket for less than $10k at a shop. Granted those are for cheaper engines... I'm just wondering what people have ACTUALLY paid a shop to do the engine swap (please no estimates... I can guess the same as you can; I want actual quotes from people who have had it done). Also, what are the man hours involved when doing it yourself? Is the process a LOT different from replacing an engine with the same engine?

20B thread disclaimer: I understand it's expensive... so don't bother repeating that. I understand how the search funtion works. I understand a LOT of people have guessed at how much they think it costs. I just wanted to talk to some ACTUAL owners of 20Bs who have either done it themselves or paid a shop.

Thanks

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

https://www.rx7club.com/20b-forum-95/where-does-all-costs-come-59544/

TMadlem84

Thanks for the link, it was old, so I missed it in my searches. So that answer the cost of the parts question.

How about:
1. actual cost shops have charged (again, no guesses) (anyone know if Banzai Racing, Indiana does the conversion & how much they charge? [they are closed till Jan])
2. man-hours involved in the swap
3. the difference in difficulty of doing a 13B to 20B swap, as opposed to simply replacing a worn out engine (ie replacing a blown 13B with a good 13B)

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

You are comparing apples to oranges here. There is no fabrication in just replacing a 13B. You are only out labor/time and the cost of the replacement motor. The cost differences are huge. Think about it, if it was that small, we all would have 20B's instead of 13B's.

I have not heard of a shop doing the conversion for less than around $25k (including parts). Most shops will not let you do half of the work here, part of the work there, and some work over at another place. They generally want to do the entire job so they know what's going on.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Are you talking stock block 20b and stock twin turbos, or built to the max motor and big *** single turbo? Big difference in price and time.

TMadlem84

Mahjik-

I'm really not saying "replacing a 13B with 13B is same as 20B conversion. I was wondering how much of a difference there is; (ie) will I be fabricating a ton of stuff... replacing every part in the engine bay.... etc. What all is involved aside from drop in a new engine, connect everything, upgrade some things & voila (& I know I'm over-simplyfing the process). What all is involved in the replacement process.

Is there a thread where somebody documented the process step-by-step? Cuz Ihavn't found it yet.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

I can do the swap for you for well under that at my shop. I also sell the conversion kit, that will keep your subframe and steering all stock (no bump steer!), if you want to do it yourself. Which really isnt too hard, but far from easy as well. Here is a link to the kit, prices and specs https://www.rx7club.com/20b-forum-95/first-look-production-fd-20b-conversion-kit-583378/

TMadlem84

I actually did see your conversion kit. How much would your shop charge (approximatley is fine)?

Is your kit just mouting adapters? Someone mentioned that you should offer a 'full' conversion kit; which would have every adapter-like part you need (so I would just need to buy a 20B, supporting parts, like a rad, & your kit) for the install. Any plans on pursuing that idea?

TMadlem84

Sorry, I missed your post. I was thinking a mostly stock 20B & stock twins. You can build it out more.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Mine cost about $37,000 from Pettit Racing. I've attached the invoice for you to see what is involved in a 20B conversion. Also add to what you see in the invoice, the rebuilding and blueprinting of the 20B turbos, the relocation and "plumbing" of the AC system, and an aluminum billet flywheel.

It's not cheap to do and does require much fabrication. I'm sure other shops will do the conversion for less but make sure you know exactly what is being done. Some shops will do the swap without rebuilding the engine or the turbos. Do you really want this? I think not. My advice is to write out exactly what you wish to achieve with the project and then compile a list of what needs to be done. For example, do you really want to stay with the stock twins? My bet is no. You'll want the increased HP from a single so you should consider this right at the beginning. Planing out these steps will save you much time, money, and effort. Take it from me, the poster child for how to not do it and spend max dollars.

You can also do it yourself but you'll need to be very knowledgeable with the process. Sounds to me from you statements about swapping out engines you are better leaving this to the professionals. No offense - this is the route I've taken.

Good luck!

TMadlem84

The invoice is helpful. This isn't anything I'm starting tonight. I'm really just trying to figure out, in the future, if this is where I'd want to end up. Figure out should I save my pennies now, only upgrade parts on my car that will be needed with the 20B, or simply keep the 13b the whole way & upgrade everything on that. More or less, I'm trying to figure out where I want to go in the future, so I know how to get to that point today.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

No, it is alot more than just adapters. I give every piece you need, a waterpump adapter, modified p.s bracket to relocate the alternater, ball bearing tensioner and bracket, modify the stock 20B oil pan, and steering rack fittings. Once you purchase my kit, the 20B can be fully installed, and will only need to have the stock intake manifold lowered some to clear the hood. (Cut and re-weld the lower intake section). You will not need a custom subframe, the stock subframe is UN-touched, no bump steer correction, no sway bar relocation, no spindle adapters ect ect. I think this is a break-through for all FD guys wanting to do 20B swap. Only negative thing is you must choose between keeping A/C or P.S. , cant have both with this kit, unless you build it N/a.

PM me for a quote for a 20B install, as I will need to know what options, and power you want. Base pricing starts in the 18k range not the keeping a/c system.

TMadlem84

I stumbled across someone selling a 'complete' 20B package. While I know sales like that are uncommon, would that be a realistic option for someone? Buy a 'complete' setup from someone who had a 20B running in their FD. Wouldn't buying the setup (linked below) require mostly install work as opposed to all the complicated fabrication & setup stuff?

https://www.rx7club.com/20b-forum-95/fully-built-20b-package-sale-593731/

Again, this ain't happening tonight, I just want to know my options so I can start planning ahead.

TMadlem84

My thinking is:

Future major upgrade options:
1. single turbo ($5-10k)
2. 20B setup ($20-40k)

Is there a big difference... of course... just trying to figure out which one I want. I could go out & buy a new car, spend 25-35k on a new car that... or spend that much to get a "new" RX7... if I could choose a new car... or a 20B... I'd take the later & drive my Jeep around when the 7 is down.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Is there a difference? Sure, the 20B will produce more torque than the 13B. I personally would rather have a NA 20B than a single turbo 13B. But my uses for the car would probably be different than yours.

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

That would be me, and it's not in an FD, it was in an FC. It's not likely you'll find someone that will be selling their entire setup either. 99% of the 20B's I've seen on here are stock and people buy them and then realize they don't nearly have the money it takes to do this conversion and they sell the motor. Once you take the leap and rebuild the motor, etc, there are other challenges that occur.

Buying a stock 20B - price is around $4000-5000 with s/h. Doing a rebuild, porting, etc, add another $3-5K depending upon the condition of the motor.

You'll need an EMS. Mine is already wired up, and has a tuned base map with coils, etc. All you have to do is run power to the processor, coils, and hook it up, done. Otherwise you'll have to purchase an EMS of your choice, install it yourself or have someone else do it for you, and tune it. Figure an EMS is approx. $1400 plus install ~$500-1000, plus tuning, $500-1000 and more depending upon how much you want to tune. Custom spark plug wires and coils also.

I would suggest getting a variety of gauges (plus install) to see how things are going; fuel pressure, oil temp/pressure, EGT, AFR, coolant temp.

Also need to keep twin turbo's and modify outlet piping or go single, fab a manifold, wastegate, fab an exhaust/downpipe. Plus boost controller and BOV install.

The other stuff you'll need is radiator, intercooler, fuel pump, clutch/flywheel, hoses, fittings, fluids, etc. Don't forget about making the engine/turbo look pretty either unless you want it to look stock that is. Polishing/ceramic coating all take more time/money to take off the parts, prep them, do the work, clean them up, then reinstall.

The problem is most people ask how much the conversion is and don't bother to figure in the costs affilated with the labor to install and fabricate. They only look at parts alone and can't understand why after $10K, everything isn't done for them and runs perfect?

Figure in another 100-500 hours of labor (depending upon what you are doing to the car at the same time) at $100/hr. That's where the $30-50K figure comes from when knowledgeable people speak from experience with this conversion.

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

Food for thought. I met Banzai this August. We had brought a 20B FD to this get together and they had never heard a 20B run before...

That impressed me very little and you can do what you want but... personnally I would never go that way based upon that experience.