patman

iTrader: (3)

i use a cheapo ebay 60mm, works great for me, ive had it down as low as 4psi. currently at 14 psi, i dont creep at all...

felix_is_alive

These are some pictures from when i was building the manifold (the support brace on the waste-gate flange has been removed now) i think that design wise it should work , again i could be wrong but let see what you guys think....if anything i am already planning how to make the 60MM wastegate modification

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

From the pics, it looks like the plumbing for the wastegate coming out of the collector is angled to much in the opposite direction of exhaust flow.

felix_is_alive

would you happen to have some pictures of a better example? , this way i can try and modify this one better

mirabile

Pictures of the Aspec mani

felix_is_alive

Tha wastegate runner on thet manifold doesn`t seem to be much in the flow path either , ..or maybe my turbine exhaust sizing/trim combo doesn`t work with the 46MM ?

teachermechanic

iTrader: (4)

It's right T-VON, just fix at the right place.
My setup: Turbonetics T70, 1.00 A/R housing, 3 1/2" downpipe, Tial 38mm, 5 Lbs spring. No creep at all.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

You will not overspin your turbo when using it with a wastegate. The only time that would come into play is if your running a smaller sized turbo, your not using a wastegate on a smaller sized turbo or you are relying too much on the POV. I had garrett engineers tell me it wont work, and guess what? It does just fine. Next time I get a car setup with a POV I will try and get some data for you. They like to think inside thier box. Don't fix it if it aint broke kinda thing.You will be using the wastegate still to control turbine speed. You will just be using a higher spring pressure to ramp up your boost curve and rely on the POV for keeping it solid. Rest assured the first one of you in this thread that runs your car this way will never deal with boost creep again. Wont have to worry about over boosting and will be amazed at the better response.

Thank you for proving what some already know. A bigger gate isn't the answer nine times out of ten. All it does is offer slower response and larger turbine oscillations. Think about it your going to run a 60mm(2.36") gate on what better be at least a 2.36" runner otherwise you've done nothing but slow your gates response.

Also it is well known the tial 44mm outflows the older 46mm.


-S-

felix_is_alive

i see your`e point ...so closer to the collector is the best place ??....i am going to post some better pictures of my manifold so you can see , i also heve it close to the collector, ...or maybe my 46mm is the old model?

felix_is_alive

Here is the thing i dont want to cut up this manifold and ruin it ,so i better be shure where i cut to make a runner to make that gate work ....any suggestions where i should make the runner?

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

You have two options really, one is to have a shared flow path in the same direction as the exhaust is flowing. This is best. The next best thing is to place the WG runner where the highest pressure in the manifold is going to be so closest to the turbine as possible. Things you shouldn't do are putting it on just one runner or have it so that exhaust would have to flow backwards for it to work. Your manifold looks like it will flow well. If it seems you have a issue with it creeping then you have a few options. Modify the WG runner inlet you can do that by moving it up flush underneath the turbine inlet flange then welding on another piece of tubing under the WG runner(where the old hole was) at a angle so you have the opening more gradual and larger. That would be the best bet for you. I would say run a POV but I don't want to get into any more arguements. But think about this say your going to run 15psi and you set your WG at 17psi the WG will still open well before 17psi it doesn't just open suddenly. And the POV opens at 15psi. Are you over spinning your turbo? No? Your WG is cracking open at say 13psi instead of 10psi. Random numbers but it is there just to paint a picture. The whole time you WG cracks open at 10psi it is not spooling the turbo as fast as it could.

Would I recommend this on a smaller turbo? No way. Would I recommend it on a 42R hell yes. Will you see a huge difference in response hell yes. Feeling lucky try it. Set your boost or fuel or however you choose cut at 15psi(or whatever your safe with) don't hook up your WG. See what happens a easier way to think about it is simple, ever see how much faster boost rises on a high boost car versus a lower boost car. Same thing. I've seen 42R's spool as fast or faster as daily driven 35R's how's that for having you cake and eating it to. You just need to have the car setup correctly.

-S-

felix_is_alive

ok i am going to cancel that 60mm tial. gate and going to mount that extra piece of runner see what happens , i will keep you guys informed , also do you think its possible ,instead of moving the runner upward , to put a extra piece of tubing at an angle closer to the turbine flange?

mad20b

It will still creep. Dont cancel the 60mm.

mirabile

ITS A CLOSE FIT with my aspec mani. We are going to have to shave down/notch out the shock tower some.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

If you've already got the 60mm bought. You might as well use it. I thought you had the 44mm gate. I'm not a fan of the 46mm gates they don't perform as well as the 44's as far as flow goes.
Bigger Gates are usually not the answer flow is.

The best thing you can do with the wastegate runner is to get it so the it shares flow with the turbine inlet. You can do that by either doing what I described above or having it come off the collector from the same hole with a bend coming off the collector that flows upward into the runner, basically the same thing as the first option, both are having the WG runner point downward into the collector. The easier air get inthe runner the better off you are. Another thing is turbine housing size. It wont matter if your trying to run a really small A/r.

-S-

felix_is_alive

Damn ...now what , i already cut off my manifold this morning , i am officially gate-less .....**** **** **** ......and i cant get to my guy to cancell the 60mm also , and i have the 46mm ..aarrrggg..damn and i was just getting into the idea that the 46mm would be ok and react quick enough.....but will it be laggy with the 60mm?
**** it i will get the 60 mm i will keep you guys posted and show pics

mad20b

The 60mm will be fine! Just remember to use a heavy spring in it (if you want 12psi as minimum boost - use a 12 psi spring). This will help you with response. Also, a good electronic boost controller that holds the gate shut until desired psi is reached is a bonus too.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Not necessarily! Look at his manifold and runner location in relation to the air path. His runners point directly toward the wastegate 1st. Air "just like anything else" will always take the path of least resistance. Air wants to go straight.


Now look at your manifold. Your wastegate is at a 90degree angle to the air path. Your three runners join together and head straight toward the turbine. Scientifically there is no reason for the air flow to magically change direction and head out that wastegate hole on the side just because it opens. That 90degree location is just causing a slight vacuum over that hole which is exactly why your not venting much boost.


The A-spec manifold has atleast one runner "the far left" pointing towards the wastegate hole.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Now I know someone you may think I'm smoking something with that comment but it's true. To prove my point, you can simply conduct your own test at home. Grab two small coffee sipper straws and a glass of water. Place one straw in the glass and place the in your mouth. Now blow air across the top of the straw in the glass at a 90degree angle. The fast moving air flow over the glass straw will lower the air pressure over the little hole causing the water squirt out.

You can also do this same test and use a feather instead of a glass of water. In this case you would use regular sized straws. Place the straw above the feather and blow across like before and the feather would be drawn up into the straw.

felix_is_alive

Ok , i got the point , problems are ,
1 the 60mm gate is already on the way , i was to late to cancell (damn!) so there is no point in modifing the manifold for the 46mm .

2 i cant change the collector its one of those $400 burns collectors , also space is very tight but i think i can make the mod like zero said ,i will move the new runner all the way up to the collector (beggier runner for the 6mm gate) and the hole that remains (where the previous runner was) i will use a extra piece of curved tubing at an angle to connect to the other runner (the one leading to the 60mm gate) i believe if i use a curved piece (from an elbow) not only will it make a nice smooth connection , but it will also make a "venturi" effect under high speed making the air go in that direction

plus its a 60mm gate if that doesnt work i dont know what will

I have the manifold with the runner cut of now i am waiting for the 60mm to get here to make the mods , i will make some pics as i go along

Again if anyone cares to chime in you r`e quite welcome any suggestions are very very welcome !

RETed

Actually, it's perfectly acceptable...
If the area was just a laminar flow you would right.
The collector area is typically a high pressure area - I think someone already mentioned this - it's fine for a wastegate position.


-Ted

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

T-von is pretty spot on about the flow. You should be fine just make sure to have your runner join the collector pointing into(downward) into the flow path, I would also use tubing equal to the WG opening. Running a 40mm runner on a 60mm gate isn't going to help you much, might as well run a 40mm gate. That said running a 2.3" runner, it will be larger than your primaries. Get the gate see where it fits and do your best to run the largest diameter you can to match the gate inlet. That in itself combined with that being the place where exhaust BP is going to be highest should be more than enough. All this you need a large gate crap is silly, but since you now have one just set it up right and you will have no issues.

-S-

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

How did you sneak this post in I didn't even see it? I had Ryan contact you, let me know if you need anything. This is mainly because the issue with turbine choice.


-S-

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

I was running a HKS GT60 gate with a 12 psi spring. It held 8 psi on the nose under load and I never had creep. With a T-76 1.32 A/R turbine, boost was on about 2-2.5K rpms (street port, high comp rotors).

A friend of mine is running an equivalent turbo, but BB, and an Innovative 60mm gate. I like his gate much better as it completely seals off the flow (the HKS does not), and his boost is more crisp than mine was - however that could be due to BB also. He has no creep I'm aware of either.

felix_is_alive

I am running T76 1.15 A/R turbine , )street port, regular comp rotors) , i should start seeing boost at about 2-2.5K rpms also ?

i have a few days of (vacation) so i am not going to be in the shop ....damn cant wait to get that thing running again
pics are coming