20B into FD conversion (alot of questions)
#1
20B into FD conversion (alot of questions)
I have afew questions about swapping the 20B in place of the FD's 13B-REW. Keep in mind this would be a street car, making around 700-800RWHP w/ a large street port and, drivability and reliability is a must
1. First off, what is a good EMS? I see that the majority of 20B's are either running on Microtech, Electromotive or MoTec.
2. I've read that the 20B runs hot. Is there any aftermarket radiator out there that helps keep the engine running at safe temps even when making 700-800RWHP?
3. Getting it in. I know that there are afew companies selling sub frames. Petit being one of them, how good is their subframe? will fix "bump steer" that read about all the time? What about motor mounts? I guess custom fab is the only way to go?
4. Tranny. There are so many and so few that are streetable. Which one would be best for running 700-800RWHP? I've read that the T-56 might handle this sort of power, but it has to be modified. Also, are there any others? I think that GReddy and/or HKS sells a seq. 6spd and a H pattern and are able to handle about 1000HP, but for $10k? you gotta be kidding.
5. Flywheel and clutch. Dont know where to begin. Twin plate?, tirple plate? There are afew companies I know of that produce such products:
Power Enterprise - http://www.power-enterprise.co.jp/exp/multi_c/ triple plate
Exedy - http://www.genxmuscle.com/exedy/tripleplate.html triple plate
OS Giken - http://osgiken.co.jp/ i pretty sure they make dual and triple plate clutches
HKS - http://www.alamoautosports.com/alamo...s/dept_61.html triple and dual plate
Which one is streetable and can handle 700-800RWHP?
6. Rear diff. It has to be streetable, handle 700-800RWHP. i'm not even sure were to go with this one. Theres lots.........anyone?
7. Intercooler and turbo. Which way is best to go when choosing a intercooler when wanting to make 700-800RWHP, custom or aftermarket? Apex'i and GReddy make big intercoolers that can probably handle those kind of power levels. And the turbo. Going big would seem to make sense, since 20Bs can spool large turbos fairly quick. I was thinking either T51R Kai BB, or T51R SPL BB. Both large turbos, both ball bearing Kai has a 94mm inducer and the SPL has a 102.2mm inducer. Not sure about the exducer though, anyone got some specs? But are very expensive and won't be able to be rebuilt. What are other affordable BB turbos that can make around 700RWHP+ with pump gas and a large street port and make around 800RWHP+ with race gas and still be able to spool fast?
8. Will the motor has to be dowled and pinned, or have the eccentric shaft balanced when making 700-800RWHP.
9. I think I'm asking too many questions all at once
Anyways, if anyone helps answer some of my questions, it would be greatly appreciated And if there are any other things that should addressed when building a 700-800RWHP 20B monster please say so.
Thanks.
1. First off, what is a good EMS? I see that the majority of 20B's are either running on Microtech, Electromotive or MoTec.
2. I've read that the 20B runs hot. Is there any aftermarket radiator out there that helps keep the engine running at safe temps even when making 700-800RWHP?
3. Getting it in. I know that there are afew companies selling sub frames. Petit being one of them, how good is their subframe? will fix "bump steer" that read about all the time? What about motor mounts? I guess custom fab is the only way to go?
4. Tranny. There are so many and so few that are streetable. Which one would be best for running 700-800RWHP? I've read that the T-56 might handle this sort of power, but it has to be modified. Also, are there any others? I think that GReddy and/or HKS sells a seq. 6spd and a H pattern and are able to handle about 1000HP, but for $10k? you gotta be kidding.
5. Flywheel and clutch. Dont know where to begin. Twin plate?, tirple plate? There are afew companies I know of that produce such products:
Power Enterprise - http://www.power-enterprise.co.jp/exp/multi_c/ triple plate
Exedy - http://www.genxmuscle.com/exedy/tripleplate.html triple plate
OS Giken - http://osgiken.co.jp/ i pretty sure they make dual and triple plate clutches
HKS - http://www.alamoautosports.com/alamo...s/dept_61.html triple and dual plate
Which one is streetable and can handle 700-800RWHP?
6. Rear diff. It has to be streetable, handle 700-800RWHP. i'm not even sure were to go with this one. Theres lots.........anyone?
7. Intercooler and turbo. Which way is best to go when choosing a intercooler when wanting to make 700-800RWHP, custom or aftermarket? Apex'i and GReddy make big intercoolers that can probably handle those kind of power levels. And the turbo. Going big would seem to make sense, since 20Bs can spool large turbos fairly quick. I was thinking either T51R Kai BB, or T51R SPL BB. Both large turbos, both ball bearing Kai has a 94mm inducer and the SPL has a 102.2mm inducer. Not sure about the exducer though, anyone got some specs? But are very expensive and won't be able to be rebuilt. What are other affordable BB turbos that can make around 700RWHP+ with pump gas and a large street port and make around 800RWHP+ with race gas and still be able to spool fast?
8. Will the motor has to be dowled and pinned, or have the eccentric shaft balanced when making 700-800RWHP.
9. I think I'm asking too many questions all at once
Anyways, if anyone helps answer some of my questions, it would be greatly appreciated And if there are any other things that should addressed when building a 700-800RWHP 20B monster please say so.
Thanks.
Last edited by 20B Junkie; 08-07-03 at 11:49 AM.
#5
Originally posted by MaTT_FoULk
Lets be realistic. In your sig you say you are 17, there is no way a 17 year old could afford a 20b FD. I'm only 18 so it is not trying to be an *** or anything.
Lets be realistic. In your sig you say you are 17, there is no way a 17 year old could afford a 20b FD. I'm only 18 so it is not trying to be an *** or anything.
I think I have a good future ahead of me, won't go into details, but basically I could making really good money($70,000 - $100,000+) if I keep studying well the way I'm right now(1 more year left of highschool). Then 3-4 years in university.
I know it may seem like a pipe dream right now. But better to be prepared if I decide to take on this sort of project some day
#6
Originally posted by 20B Junkie
Thats ok, I understand, I know its hard to take me seriously. Obviously I can't do it now, with so much power I'd be scared to drive such a car. This is something that might be done in the near future perhaps.
I think I have a good future ahead of me, won't go into details, but basically I could making really good money($70,000 - $100,000+) if I keep studying well the way I'm right now(1 more year left of highschool). Then 3-4 years in university.
I know it may seem like a pipe dream right now. But better to be prepared if I decide to take on this sort of project some day
Thats ok, I understand, I know its hard to take me seriously. Obviously I can't do it now, with so much power I'd be scared to drive such a car. This is something that might be done in the near future perhaps.
I think I have a good future ahead of me, won't go into details, but basically I could making really good money($70,000 - $100,000+) if I keep studying well the way I'm right now(1 more year left of highschool). Then 3-4 years in university.
I know it may seem like a pipe dream right now. But better to be prepared if I decide to take on this sort of project some day
Your power levels are beyond my experience level, and I am more into road racing as opposed to drag racing, but I will still respond to a few of your questions as best I can.
1) Those EMS products are fine, and have all proven to run a 20B. Three others that I know of running a 20B are from Link, Haltech, and Wolf. However, given your performance level and budget, the Motec M800 would be the way to go in my opinion.
2) My recommendation: Griffin HP Max (custom specs, special order only).
3) Pettit's is the only subframe that I would put in my car if I had an FD. Their spindals supposedly eliminate the bump steer problem. You may also want to consider a dry sump, which will reduce the ground clearance by eliminating the stock oil pan bulge. Search this 20B forum for more info.
4) The top-rated T56 is only rated for 450 lb-ft torque, and will probably explode in your application. Also, the T56 is a low-rpm transmission, and will not work well if you are shifting above 7,000rpm. You are going to need a serious transmission from G-Force, Lenco, Hewland, etc. Plan on spending $7,000 - $18,000 USD.
5) This depends on the transmission. Other good multi-disk clutchs are from Tilton and Quarter Master, which are the two most common clutch packs in Mazda-sponsored road racing events. FYI, clutches are rated for torque, not horsepower.
6) Good question.
7) Whatever you choose is going to be expensive, so you need to accept that fact right now, lol. You will need to talk to your engine builder to match your turbo to your engine specs. A street port is not going to give you that much hp to the wheels. You will need a bridge port or peripheral port.
8) Hehehe, it's going to need a lot of everything.
9) No problem.
See this site for ideas:
http://www.evil7.com/
#7
Good response Evil...you are right on about the bump steer. I have Pettit's subframe/spindles and have no problems.
Junkie..I am running the setup you discuss almost to the tee. Expect to spend 50k plus the cost of the car to do it properly. If I did it over again I would go strait to the M5 or M8 but, if you want something different this is the route to go.
earl
Junkie..I am running the setup you discuss almost to the tee. Expect to spend 50k plus the cost of the car to do it properly. If I did it over again I would go strait to the M5 or M8 but, if you want something different this is the route to go.
earl
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#8
Originally posted by Evil Aviator
I hope you are not seriously considering some network marketing scam. Anyway, you could probably afford a car like that within 5 years of graduating from medical school or law school. Based on my own experience, and that of those who I know, you would be better off just buying a new Ferrari for that kind of money, as this will give you better reliability, better resale value, and it would be a lot more practical. Anyway, it's fun to dream, so I can't fault you there.
Your power levels are beyond my experience level, and I am more into road racing as opposed to drag racing, but I will still respond to a few of your questions as best I can.
1) Those EMS products are fine, and have all proven to run a 20B. Three others that I know of running a 20B are from Link, Haltech, and Wolf. However, given your performance level and budget, the Motec M800 would be the way to go in my opinion.
2) My recommendation: Griffin HP Max (custom specs, special order only).
3) Pettit's is the only subframe that I would put in my car if I had an FD. Their spindals supposedly eliminate the bump steer problem. You may also want to consider a dry sump, which will reduce the ground clearance by eliminating the stock oil pan bulge. Search this 20B forum for more info.
4) The top-rated T56 is only rated for 450 lb-ft torque, and will probably explode in your application. Also, the T56 is a low-rpm transmission, and will not work well if you are shifting above 7,000rpm. You are going to need a serious transmission from G-Force, Lenco, Hewland, etc. Plan on spending $7,000 - $18,000 USD.
5) This depends on the transmission. Other good multi-disk clutchs are from Tilton and Quarter Master, which are the two most common clutch packs in Mazda-sponsored road racing events. FYI, clutches are rated for torque, not horsepower.
6) Good question.
7) Whatever you choose is going to be expensive, so you need to accept that fact right now, lol. You will need to talk to your engine builder to match your turbo to your engine specs. A street port is not going to give you that much hp to the wheels. You will need a bridge port or peripheral port.
8) Hehehe, it's going to need a lot of everything.
9) No problem.
See this site for ideas:
http://www.evil7.com/
I hope you are not seriously considering some network marketing scam. Anyway, you could probably afford a car like that within 5 years of graduating from medical school or law school. Based on my own experience, and that of those who I know, you would be better off just buying a new Ferrari for that kind of money, as this will give you better reliability, better resale value, and it would be a lot more practical. Anyway, it's fun to dream, so I can't fault you there.
Your power levels are beyond my experience level, and I am more into road racing as opposed to drag racing, but I will still respond to a few of your questions as best I can.
1) Those EMS products are fine, and have all proven to run a 20B. Three others that I know of running a 20B are from Link, Haltech, and Wolf. However, given your performance level and budget, the Motec M800 would be the way to go in my opinion.
2) My recommendation: Griffin HP Max (custom specs, special order only).
3) Pettit's is the only subframe that I would put in my car if I had an FD. Their spindals supposedly eliminate the bump steer problem. You may also want to consider a dry sump, which will reduce the ground clearance by eliminating the stock oil pan bulge. Search this 20B forum for more info.
4) The top-rated T56 is only rated for 450 lb-ft torque, and will probably explode in your application. Also, the T56 is a low-rpm transmission, and will not work well if you are shifting above 7,000rpm. You are going to need a serious transmission from G-Force, Lenco, Hewland, etc. Plan on spending $7,000 - $18,000 USD.
5) This depends on the transmission. Other good multi-disk clutchs are from Tilton and Quarter Master, which are the two most common clutch packs in Mazda-sponsored road racing events. FYI, clutches are rated for torque, not horsepower.
6) Good question.
7) Whatever you choose is going to be expensive, so you need to accept that fact right now, lol. You will need to talk to your engine builder to match your turbo to your engine specs. A street port is not going to give you that much hp to the wheels. You will need a bridge port or peripheral port.
8) Hehehe, it's going to need a lot of everything.
9) No problem.
See this site for ideas:
http://www.evil7.com/
Just to clear the RWHP numbers, what I ment to say is close to 700RWHP w/ pump gas and say around 17psi,18psi and maybe around 800RWHP+ with race fuel and lots of boost. MVA made 600RWHP(maybe abit more) on pump w/ a large street port and I think close to 800RWHP w/ race gas and lots o' boost But thats if I remember correctly, he posted a pic of the dyno. But yeah your right, running a bigger port would help. How streetable would a bridgeport be? And Hopefully it will sound better than it sounds on a 13B.
#9
Originally posted by bermuda20b
Good response Evil...you are right on about the bump steer. I have Pettit's subframe/spindles and have no problems.
Junkie..I am running the setup you discuss almost to the tee. Expect to spend 50k plus the cost of the car to do it properly. If I did it over again I would go strait to the M5 or M8 but, if you want something different this is the route to go.
earl
Good response Evil...you are right on about the bump steer. I have Pettit's subframe/spindles and have no problems.
Junkie..I am running the setup you discuss almost to the tee. Expect to spend 50k plus the cost of the car to do it properly. If I did it over again I would go strait to the M5 or M8 but, if you want something different this is the route to go.
earl
Yeah, I'm aware of the cost . Its alot, but then again compare the performance of that to a $200,000+ exotic. It would get wasted.
#10
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From: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Originally posted by 20B Junkie
Thanks for replying Evil. No its no marketing scam lol:P: Hopefully I'm going to medical school (MRI). As for buying a Ferrari, I'd rather have a 93' FD anyday. Don't get me wrong I like them alot, but they cost too much to keep and take care of. Waste of money IMO. Plus I've liked RX7s ever since I was 12 or so.
Just to clear the RWHP numbers, what I ment to say is close to 700RWHP w/ pump gas and say around 17psi,18psi and maybe around 800RWHP+ with race fuel and lots of boost. MVA made 600RWHP(maybe abit more) on pump w/ a large street port and I think close to 800RWHP w/ race gas and lots o' boost But thats if I remember correctly, he posted a pic of the dyno. But yeah your right, running a bigger port would help. How streetable would a bridgeport be? And Hopefully it will sound better than it sounds on a 13B.
Thanks for replying Evil. No its no marketing scam lol:P: Hopefully I'm going to medical school (MRI). As for buying a Ferrari, I'd rather have a 93' FD anyday. Don't get me wrong I like them alot, but they cost too much to keep and take care of. Waste of money IMO. Plus I've liked RX7s ever since I was 12 or so.
Just to clear the RWHP numbers, what I ment to say is close to 700RWHP w/ pump gas and say around 17psi,18psi and maybe around 800RWHP+ with race fuel and lots of boost. MVA made 600RWHP(maybe abit more) on pump w/ a large street port and I think close to 800RWHP w/ race gas and lots o' boost But thats if I remember correctly, he posted a pic of the dyno. But yeah your right, running a bigger port would help. How streetable would a bridgeport be? And Hopefully it will sound better than it sounds on a 13B.
two, the 13b bridge port sounds good!
mike
#11
450 rwhp? Who told u that as I don't recall seeing u in the dyno room. I will be in Vancouver/Victoria over labor day with the car if you want to see it.
Good luck with your project. In my opinion, the single biggest issue (besides money) is selecting the correct shop to do the work. I think there are only two, maybe 3 shops that I would go to for the work to be done. I don't recommend doing yourself...not to go into a fd. Everything needs to me fabricated with this conversion. Simple things like motor mounts take reasearching and fiddle fking around to work.
Good luck with your project. In my opinion, the single biggest issue (besides money) is selecting the correct shop to do the work. I think there are only two, maybe 3 shops that I would go to for the work to be done. I don't recommend doing yourself...not to go into a fd. Everything needs to me fabricated with this conversion. Simple things like motor mounts take reasearching and fiddle fking around to work.
#12
Originally posted by bermuda20b
450 rwhp? Who told u that as I don't recall seeing u in the dyno room. I will be in Vancouver/Victoria over labor day with the car if you want to see it.
Good luck with your project. In my opinion, the single biggest issue (besides money) is selecting the correct shop to do the work. I think there are only two, maybe 3 shops that I would go to for the work to be done. I don't recommend doing yourself...not to go into a fd. Everything needs to me fabricated with this conversion. Simple things like motor mounts take reasearching and fiddle fking around to work.
450 rwhp? Who told u that as I don't recall seeing u in the dyno room. I will be in Vancouver/Victoria over labor day with the car if you want to see it.
Good luck with your project. In my opinion, the single biggest issue (besides money) is selecting the correct shop to do the work. I think there are only two, maybe 3 shops that I would go to for the work to be done. I don't recommend doing yourself...not to go into a fd. Everything needs to me fabricated with this conversion. Simple things like motor mounts take reasearching and fiddle fking around to work.
Yeah I know what you mean. Theres very few shops here in Ontario that could do it. One shop, Magnus Motorsports just dropped a 20B into their blue FD race/street car. And 20B-3rotor got his 20B swap at his dads shop, but it was done in a 2nd gen. Either one of these are the only shops that I know of here in Ontario that have done it. And my older brother is very good friends with a well known rotary shop (A-Spec). They've been working with rotaries for a long time, I think since late 70s early 80s. So my options are very limited, but those are respectable shops to get it done at that are atleast local.
Hopefully in 4-5 years I can start this project, but only time will tell.
Last edited by 20B Junkie; 08-11-03 at 12:14 PM.
#13
The car is usually in either Texas or Vegas racing. It goes back to Canada for six months of the year and goes back down. Gotta love the insurance in BC.....no smog test in the northern part of the province!
The 20b into a fd is a tricky install. Spend your money wisely and go to either Tito at Alamo or Cam at Pettit. As my name may suggest, I live in Bermuda....Tito has done a ton of work on the car and I would recommend him to anyone. Some people say he is expensvie...I say you pay for what you get. I needed someone I could trust to look after my car like it was his own...Tito did that and NO he didn't pay me to say that!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know my car is on 1300cc.com but I didn't know it was on another.
The 20b into a fd is a tricky install. Spend your money wisely and go to either Tito at Alamo or Cam at Pettit. As my name may suggest, I live in Bermuda....Tito has done a ton of work on the car and I would recommend him to anyone. Some people say he is expensvie...I say you pay for what you get. I needed someone I could trust to look after my car like it was his own...Tito did that and NO he didn't pay me to say that!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know my car is on 1300cc.com but I didn't know it was on another.
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