Spieder

I have kicked around the idea of why rotaries probably won't become classics and I have come to a conclusion.

They need $500 engine rebuild kits. Barring a possibly damaged housing.

The fact that rebuild kits are so expensive $840 and up is why rotaries are driven until they are trash.

Most of my friends, me included, typically rebuilt our engines at 150k. Or at minimum pulled the head off and got a vave job ( I know rotaries don't have valves so don't start). These overhauls were inexpensive to perfrom as preventative maintenance. I bought my grandfather a VW fox to drive with 130k. First thing I did was have the heads resurfaced, valves reground and seated, new timing belt, headgasket and valve gasket and new pan gasket and rod bearings. Total cost 400 bucks and the thing ran like the day it came from VW (which may or may not be a good thing).

Here is an example...VW bugs. They are classic why? Well simply they are like 150 bucks for a rebuild kit. So every teenager or whatever can afford to keep them going.

If the kits cost less, I bet more people would replace the seals and overhaul them preventing serious damage from occuring.

I have 2 engines on my garage floor that I am itching to rebuild (both run fine) at 140k and 203k. But for 830 bucks that's a little high. I cam usually get an entire car, passing smog with a rebuilt engine for 1k to 1.5k now.

Which brings me to another point. Mazda (kneeling in great reverence). I know they have like a 200% mark up on those kits (probably constituting a large part of income). If they were smart and provided us with better pricing, they would see a lot more rotary tinkering, which leads to better consumer awarness and ultimately acceptance. Then they would probably sell more kits and make up the difference in volume.

Wattz

I think it's more about not knowing where to get one and not being able to find many that are in decent enough shape for a regular teenager to work on without a good budget.

It's more about them being rare rather than them being over-priced. The number of first gens that actually run is very low, the rest are either scrap or sitting in a junkyard, with all the good pieces torn off them.

MIKE-P-28

iTrader: (1)

You got to remember that every other manufacturer is able to go and look at the mistakes made by others over the piston's long history.. The little rotary is a lot younger than its conterpart, and a GREAT DEAL of the money you pay for the parts to rebuild it goes to the R & D people... If you dont like the prices of the rebuild kit, get a CNC mill and copy the mazda parts and sell them. After you intial 1 million in investment you might make you money back in about 20 years, So you see the point? Mazda dumped tons of money into this design.. I hate it as much as the next person, but this is the cost for being different.

Manntis

with your logic Ferraris and Lotuses (Loti?) would never be classics, yet they are.

It's not a matter of cost, it's a matter of perception. There are so many raped and abused ReXes out there that the public perception is that that's what they all are.

240Zs were mass-produced, so run the spectrum of highly desirable (crusty but not rusty, spent but not bent) to run away screaming. A mint one will cost a fortune, but the average one can be had for around the same price as a ReX. Yet pick up any automotive journal worth it's weight in engine oil and the 240Z is a very important car, already considered a classic with or without the 25-year rule.

By the same token Audi Quattro Coupes were also historically important, so good were they at rally racing they were eventually banned (though some claim it was due to a female driver kicking butt in what was still a boy's club) and a mint one can run in the tens of thousands, but an average one is a giveaway in the $1,000 - $2,000 range.

The 1st gen RX-7 is a great example of a mass produced pocket rocket. There are tens of thousands of them out there dragging the value down, but through attrition that's changing. As more and more appear as picked-over carcasses in automotive boneyards their value as classics is increasing.

Having one of the only production rotaries is tremendously important to this ascention in value and perception, just as older Jaguars are coveted for their 4 wheel disc brakes in an era where everything but aircraft had drums.

My prediction is the SAs and FBs will be classics as Mazda's mass-produced sportscar, designed to be reliable but sold to an uninformed public.

The 2nd gen has its points but tries too hard to be a Porsche (stylistically speaking) and ends up being a Japanese Daytona with an engine most people are scared of.

The third gen just may end up in an art museum for its flowing, sensuous lines but it's overstressed engine is loved by few, and by the mid-90's it was just one of many power-everything boulevard cruisers, albeit a lighter than average one.

But I digress. Point being what makes a classic and price of parts or maintainance are two different things. I think some of you are coming from the mindset of 60's American muscle cars when you think classic, and their relatively low parts cost is a part of their allure. However I hold the Sa and FB up to British, European, and Asian marques for comparison. Mazda wasn't trying to build muscle cars, after all. They were making reliable sporty cars with English litheness and their version of Teutonic styling.

peejay

i don't think the price of engine rebuilds matter, especially considering how long the engines typically last.

mainly the problem is, beyond the fact that japanese cars manage to rust into nothing even faster than Mopars ( ), people don't care about the cars. People are more than willing to hack them up with half-assed modifications and then when the car ends up worse off, they sell the car off to someone else who continues to turn the car into crap.

Spieder

Ah, but the price does matter and is a major factor in considering purchasing a vehicle.

A person has a choice between a Z and an RX-7. Both blown enignes. Hmmm, the Z can be done for 500 or less. The 7's going to cost you 1500+. Don't think that matters, it does.

As for attrition, I agree but have to disagree an desirability. Just because there are few cars left and they have some eclectic value, doesn't make them a classic. Does anyone care to see Dolorian's, no.

The kids and other guys I know who buy VW bugs and buses do so for a main reason. Cheap maintenance and mods. That's the top answer I get (granted they need alot of maintenance). RX-7's are just too expensive to customize and maintain if your are going to mod them. If I didn't have 2 extra engines, if my engine died tomorrow, I would not be buying another for 2k. She would sit in the garage for the next 10 years. I would be buying another car.

As for Ferrar and Lotus, they are exotic rare cars to begin with and they are the toys of people who live very different lifestyles.

As for Mazda's R&D. It took Mazda about 4 years and 4 million dollars to develop the rotary in the 60's. Given such a low engine development cost I have to disagree with your iddea of still covering R&D. As an example, Dodge purchased the engines in their cab forward models for about 12 million from an individual developer in the early 90's.

Engines are a small part of development cost. The major lies in the bulk head/firewall design. Mazda spent around 40 million to develop the Millenia (actually the lowest of 3 cars they were designing) and recouped by selling technology to Ford.

The idea of the rotary was that it was supposed to be light, easy to manufacture and inexpensive to maintain. This straight from Mazda's lips in the 70's. The assembly time and time spent adjusting the engine were supposed to have been dramatically reduced since there are no valve systems and less parts.

I don't know if it's a Mazda America thing, but dealers treat people with rotaries over here like we're step children. I bought one of my 7's from a Mazda mechanic from Anahiem. He quit Mazda and opened his own shop. He told me that the dealers prey on rotary owners because the owners expect it because they think they have an exotic car that can only be fixed by the dealer.

They are known to double charge even for stuff common to all cars. As an example, the mazda mechanic quoted me 2400 for my engine block (plus 2k to install) cost and I bought it inside at the parts counter (same place) for 1200. So this "they need to recoup " crap doesn't wash with me.

I do wonder how much it would be to manufacture the engine rebuild kits. Hmmm.

85RX7GS

iTrader: (1)

It's tough. I've been through the same thing and even considered scrapping the Rx-7 and getting a different car. About four grand later, it runs just dandy and I'm somewhat glad I put the time into it.

peejay

DeLoreans are easily worth $15k-25k. They have a very strong following, too.

Spieder

That's the problem. That's how much Dolorian's cost 15 years ago. 15k to 20k. You, see, there are 2 types of classic cars. Classic's you see yourself driving down the highway in, windows down, warm breeze hot blonde next you. Then there's cars you don't really drive, just kind of collect. The former, holds it's value regardless of mileage (mustangs, cameros, 'cudas, challengers etc.) the later, are kind of like sports cards and old Star Wars action figures, you look at them but don't take them out and play with them.

The RX-7 will always be the former for me (red heads preferred) but I almost see it as becoming the 2nd. A collectors piece not a classic.

Classics are always lusted after. From the moment they were sold, they are wanted and fought over, regardless of condition. Interesting, though, I do see that with the 3rd gen. Cars have held almost 50% of original value being 10 years old. There's hope yet.

rx7passion

i like the bug motor argument, ill say this cause ive helped a few of my buddys rebuild stock bug motors and a couple high performance ones. the stock rebuild kits are mostly garbage, the piston rings and some of the bearigns are a joke they must have been make in korea and shipped over. if you want to make a good rebuilt vw motor like a 2200cc type 4 it cost 2000$ for engine parts most of which was researched to find the best made porsche products not vw knockoffs.
now i can say mazda rebuild kits can be expensive but the parts you get straight from mazda are pretty freaking good quality, now if you want a cheap rebuild kit from shucks for a 12a your going to get plastic apex seals and misc seals that dont fit right...
you get what you pay for. i myself would fork over the extra $ for quality parts

Spieder

Yeah those cheap kits are made in Mexico.

Jaye

MSRP for a DeLorean in 83 was 34K...and they were slow buckets-o-bolts. One wonders if they will ever be worth anything outside the set of cult buyers. If so then they will be considered a classic...classics are desired by the collector market in general. Cult cars never really demand really high prices.

Rarity doesn't make a collector car either. I should know. I had a Jensen GT (anybody know what that is...motors were really cool) and with only about 200ish imported to the states they never really became a collector car. A real good one goes for less than 10K. Restoration can cost at least that much.

Outside of the obvious, Ferraris, Astons, etc. the collector car market is fickle. It's hard to tell, ahead of time, which cars will make and which cars won't.

Anybody see the convertible Chevelle LS-6 go for 150K at last years Barret-Jackson auction? See what I mean.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

well, the Rx-7 has definitely achieved cult status, but i don't see it becoming a classic, like a 'Cuda, or Mustang or something.

i don't think the cost of rebuilding engines really has that much bearing on the issue of it becoming a classic, either.

i think a lot of it has to do with the stigmatism (for lack of a better word) that Japanese cars generally carry in this country and also the general tendency to public ignorance. what i'm saying is sort of hard to explain, and i want to refrain from turning this into one of my usual novels

Mazda is not Ferrari or Porsche, and they never will be looked upon with the same association with greatness. even though, what they have done with the rotary engine, in my opinion, rivals what Ferrari did with the V12 and Porsche did with the Flat 6.

the Rx-7 was a mass produced car by a "relatively" poor Japanese car company, it was marketed as an "alternative" to Porsche, and therefore was not seen as an investment - rather, just a cool car!

i think another reason why it will never be a classic, and this will sound strange, is because it did not stop with the first generation. i'm too young to have been shopping for cars in 1978, but from all that i've read (and seen in old movies) it looks like the Rx-7 was destined for being a classic ... i read about it causing lines and waiting lists for months at a time. if the Rx-7 had died in 1985, then i believe it would stand a chance, but it went on for 2 more generations.

you can say what you will about the Gen II cars. whether you love them, hate them, or like me, think they are nice, but a bit too "GT-ish". on one hand they did help Mazda stay alive, but on the other, i think they robbed the Rx-7 of it's collector status. by the time the Gen III cars came to put the "sports car" back into the Rx-7, the damage was already done.

those are just some of the points i think are relevant to my thinking it won't be classic. like i said, i don't want to ramble on about this, but the simple fact is that in the hearts of the people that matter, the true, die-hard rotary enthusiasts (me, and everyone on this forum - not some 60+ year old richboy collector), it IS a classic - and that's all that really matters. we have cool cars. we know how to keep them running, and we have enough in the junkyard to keep us out of the poorhouse.

Manntis

We're talking about collectible classics, not buying vehicles based on budget. If it's a desirable classic people will pay. Mercedes 300 SLs sell for about $1,000,000 not because they drive faster than modern cars or handle better but because the person who wants one is willing to pay a million sheckles.

As I said before if a car is a classic the price doesn't matter.

MSRP was $25,000, according to both DeLorean: The Stainless Steel Illusion by John Lamm and a road test report by Road & Track, although dealers in '83 were still tacking on premiums (just as Mazda dealers did with RX-7s and Honda dealers with the NSX)

Crest Chevrolet in San Bernadino, CA was blowing them out @ $18,995 a pop, but that was as a loss-leader promo. With their turnover of cars they could afford to.

By '85 they were giving away cases of coca-cola along with deep discounts as people knew then DeLoread was as dead as Oldsmobile is now - I thought the "Buy a DeLorean and get 60 lbs of Coke" campaign was kinda funny.

They were slow, though. 0-60 in 9.98 secs, as opposed to Corvettes of the same era doing the 0-60 in 8.25 secs.

The collector market is a slightly separate thing, but in the case of DeLoreans there are so few of them (under 3,000 currently driveable) that they easily fetch $15-$30,000 depending on condition whenever offered for sale.

BadAssRX-7

well with all new seals and using the stock rotors and housing i can get away with less than 500 in a rebuild kit

PaulFitzwarryne

While there are so many junk looking cars on the street plus others highly modified, the RX-7 will never be a desirable classic. When it does go classic people will only want stock vehicles as at shows there are deductions for modifications, any 13bt engine will be thrown out and gen 1s returned to 12a engines.

Manntis

...which is why I keep all parts I replace during mods, like my swaybars, factory rims, etc. and preserved my original tranny housing during the rebuild, so all drivetrain #s still match - and fresh interior panels on the way to properly remove the faded bits without close-enough-until-they-flake vinyl painting.

By swapping a few parts back in I can have my Pamela as stock as the day she left the showroom, complete with all accessories (tools, both roofs, manual, etc) - but until then I have a low-profile tire and flashy rim wearing, K&N and RB breathing, thick swaybar cornering ReX rocket

DJ Rotor

I'm starting to think I should be looking around for a pristine '79.

Values of cars are very different in different countries - North America is where the market for musclecars is, not really anywhere else. Older Japanese cars cost more in Japan than they do here - if I'm not mistaken, the 1st gen RX-7 is already considered a classic there. It's the home market.

But values for untouched early sevens in North America will go up, no doubt about it.

J

WackyRotary

Yeah, but its a bug, those things are ugly(in my opinion) not good for much except low maintaince and slow and low on the fun scale, UNLESS, you spend much time to get it to par with the rx-7's capiblilties, afterall, any car can be modified to get it into sport car range.

I have driven a number of performance vehicles and rode in some better cornering ones then my two Rex's, and I have to say that the Rx-7's are the best cornering and performance out of the factory "per bottom line cost". I have rode in a number of muscle cars that the allure is straight boring roads with no driving skills. Which is what I'm sad to say, is what Classic americans wanted because of boring interstate and long flat roads.

Performance vehicles are not about straight performance all around, its about the whole package. Muscle cars are about, making it get up to highway speed fast and skimp on everything else. Straight roads are for people over 65years old who have depth perception problems in my opinion.

In my opinion with the Rx-7, isn't about classic status, its more about, a relatively cheap vehicle to get used. If you tackle your own rebuilds, your labor costs are free, and if you don't need to buy housings and what not, the costs are VERY compariable to most rebuilds. $500.

gamble302

can i get a link plz? now that my motors toast and im getting another one cheap ive got 2 12a's and an se motor to rebuild now
i keep hearing the rebuild kits can be had cheap but ive been too lazy to go out and find the best bang for the buck rebuild kits

thanks
gamble

BadAssRX-7

its a lot of phone work to get the kits at the low low... i have 2 mazda dealers i get discounts at.. the loacal 1 is not a huge discount but if they have it in then i get it there.... the other is dealers cost but is 1200 miles away so i have to wait but to save large amounts i will. plus places like atkins and hurlys help also

geikiganger

I get the impression that there will be very few 'restored' RX-7's on the road, regardless of being a collectors/classic item. Between the unibody and high cost rebuild kits, most will be driven until they disintegrate. The valuable cars will be the ones taken care of from the beginning. I suppose that has it's pro's and con's...great for people who already have one, but rough for people who want to rebuild and resurrect a showpiece. Most of the guys I talk to seem more excited about the process of rebuilding cars rather than just owning one.

Chances are, if you one an RX in rough shape, it'll never appreciate much in value. If you've kept it cherry though, you may have something in the bank...

Jaye

According to NADA guides the MSRP for an 83 Delorean was 34K.

AdamAnt

Then, all of the junkers will be gone, and the classic RX'7's will remain. And they will get the attention of every historian.

Oh, ya, try rebuilding a Jag, Lotus, Benz etc, $850 won't seem to bad. If it's too much then you obviously don't love the car enough, so sell it someone who will.

BrianHeston

I just had an interesting discussion with a man who had just purchased a late 60's (I didn't get the year) Ford Ranchero at a local car show for close to $10k. It was already pretty damn cherry, but he added the finishing touches and has plans to do a little more. That car, without question, is a classic. Even though a lot of people hate those "damn truck-cars".

My point is though, I had my 7 sitting a couple of parking spaces away, and he immediately recognized it as a collector's/classic vehicle and began talking to me on the level of an equal in that respect . He was also impressed by how cheaply I aquired it and how easily I've been able to maintain it on such a tight budget.

It's already starting guys, we just need to have a little more patience.


BrianHeston