Theoretically, if you ran straight water in your rad...
12-04-02, 02:18 PM
#27
Originally posted by RotorMotorDriver
Thanks Jeremy...I knew I could count on you to get a realistic response
.
~T.J.
Thanks Jeremy...I knew I could count on you to get a realistic response
.~T.J.
antifreeze and water wetter do too complete opposite things. anitfreeze lubricates and keeps the water from freezing and cracking the block. water wetter reduces surface tension for the water allowing it to stay together and thus transfer heat more efficiently to the metal.
here is a good link. water wetter explanation at the bottom. http://www.vtr.org/maintain/lubricants-redline.html
Last edited by jeremy; 12-04-02 at 02:21 PM.
12-04-02, 05:12 PM
#28
Got Boost?
I don't know about Water Wetter, but this I do know... Water is an amazing substance, it stores heat very well(high heat storage capacity "cal/*C"), and conducts it to metal very well(quick sheding of excess heat). Thats the main reason why we use water as a coolant vs. oil for instance. Antifreeze raises boiling point (more 'room' for temp. fluctuation while running), lowers freezing point, but has only 40-somthing % the heat storage capacity, and doesn't conducted heat as well as water.
The mixture is made to balance the blessing of increased temp capability, and the curse of lower ablity to hold heat, and shed it. Its a game...
On the other hand, if your car runs cool enough that it never aproches the boiling point of water alone, water is the best coolant. I've been told by others on the board in a thread awhile back that hot pockets, where the water boils in small secluded areas while the overall temp is still cool enough, are common and thats why coolant is needed...
The mixture is made to balance the blessing of increased temp capability, and the curse of lower ablity to hold heat, and shed it. Its a game...
On the other hand, if your car runs cool enough that it never aproches the boiling point of water alone, water is the best coolant. I've been told by others on the board in a thread awhile back that hot pockets, where the water boils in small secluded areas while the overall temp is still cool enough, are common and thats why coolant is needed...
12-04-02, 11:11 PM
#31
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Originally posted by Wankelguy
Yes, but with a clarification, if I may.
It's not just that the engine produces water from hydrogen and oxygen, there is water vapor in the air inducted into the engine as well. Humidity also plays a role. Water is expelled out the tailpipe as an exhaust gas product where it evaporates, forming clouds that drift idly by while we mutter and curse as we bang our knuckles and cut our fingers on jagged sheetmetal.
Or is that just me?
Yes, but with a clarification, if I may.
It's not just that the engine produces water from hydrogen and oxygen, there is water vapor in the air inducted into the engine as well. Humidity also plays a role. Water is expelled out the tailpipe as an exhaust gas product where it evaporates, forming clouds that drift idly by while we mutter and curse as we bang our knuckles and cut our fingers on jagged sheetmetal.
Or is that just me?
Lets assume that gasoline is comprised solely of octane (it isn't really). Anyway, octane has 8 carbon atoms, and 18 hydrogen atoms. If complete combustion occurs (it won't really), then 9 molecules of water are produced, and 8 molecules of carbon dioxide. Actually, one gallon of gasoline would produce more than one gallon of water when combusted, and if I had the patience to determine the number of moles in a gallon of each I'd come up with a more precise answer....what was Avagadro's number again??? 6 point something.
Right now our heat exchangers for the plant I work at are creating snow. I kid you not. They use water evaporation for cooling (the towers cascade water over a tall, extensive series of vanes while giant fans draw air over the cascading water and blow it straight up.) Anyway, the water vapor plume is rising a couple hundred feet in the air, then condensing, then freezing and making snow. They had to get the plows out today to plow the parking lots. Drive 1 mile out the front gate and the snow stops. In order to reject roughly 3000 megawatts of heat to the atmosphere for our power cycle, we evaporate approximately 15000 gallons of water per minute into the air. Normally in the summertime it works really well. In the wintertime we get snow. Probably the worlds most expensive snow machine....too bad there is no slopes to ski on out here.
Last edited by Strider; 12-04-02 at 11:21 PM.
12-05-02, 12:54 AM
#33
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I've noticed that this thread is basically going around in circles of Post-Whoring and Hi-Jacking, and T.J.'s question isn't getting answered. Even though I can't answer it, perhaps someone can, instead of just joking around... 
- Your Mommy
- Your Mommy
12-05-02, 08:09 AM
#34
ok, theoretically it could have sucked in extra coolant from the reserve, then was unable to expel it back into the reserve for some odd reason. the reserve is the only way i could see it adding pressure. unless you filled it out in the cold, then opened the cap in a heated garage with a decent temp jump for the equation to allow for the pressure to be that much greater. thats all i have. the system had to have more coolant introduced or see a temperature rise.
12-05-02, 01:13 PM
#36
You don't say?
Originally posted by Strider
First, it wasn't 19000 gallons of gas, it was of air. Second, while there is humidity in the air, the majority of the water vapor in exhaust is due to the combustion process.
First, it wasn't 19000 gallons of gas, it was of air. Second, while there is humidity in the air, the majority of the water vapor in exhaust is due to the combustion process.
12-05-02, 01:19 PM
#37
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Ok let me put something out there. When your system heats up and is creating pressure it should when cooled down to have no pressure like it was at before it heated up. So it would stand to think that they system is getting pressure from some other place. On a piston engine this would be most like cause by a bad seal, or most likely head gasket. The exhaust gas gets into the cooling system creating more pressure then would normally be there, so when you open it after its cooled, there is still pressure. It could also explain for your loss of coolant. Who knows i could be way off, its just what my 240 was doing after the head gasket went out.
Joe
Joe
12-05-02, 02:46 PM
#38
Thats what I was thinking because of an old Isuzu pickup that we had did that too, but I dont know. BTW, Im using a vented radiator cap, so whever I check for pressure, I just lift the little unlock/vent bar and all the pressure wents back into the overflow tank...Maybe my cap isint working right and not allowing the pressure to be released? Its new though, new from when I got a new radiator...Like a month or two ago, lol.
~T.J.
~T.J.
12-05-02, 06:10 PM
#40
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Originally posted by jeremy
yep, your head gasket is blown. might as well put some titanium valve springs in while you have it cracked open. hell, throw in some cams too.
yep, your head gasket is blown. might as well put some titanium valve springs in while you have it cracked open. hell, throw in some cams too.
12-06-02, 07:27 PM
#43
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If coolant is leaving the system, there are three places it can go.
1.) On the ground, or your garage floor... Check for puddles, Park on newspaper or a cardboard box... See where it comes from. There are several components it can be coming from, listed later...
2.) On the car's floorboard... Heater core or heater control valve. Under the dash. Quick fix is to find the heater hoses that go through the fire wall in the engine bay and disconnect them and connect them together. This effectively takes the heater core out of the loop. It, however, leaves you with no heat. Actual fix is to take the dash apart and replace the leaky components.
3.) Out the tail pipe... This is the bad one. It's the sign of a blown head gasket on boingers and blown water seals on rotaries. Try this one day. After it's sat for a while (Overnight), remove the spark plugs. Then crank it. Coolant coming out of the saprk plug holes is the sure sign. No choice but to rebuild. Bandaid fix is Bars-Leaks.
Okay, If it's coming out from under the car, first check where ever hoses go. Bend the hoses, Squeeze them. If you bend a hose and feel a cracking inside, replace it. Hoses have two layers with string mesh in between... The cracking feeling is the strings breaking down.
Check the radiator... All of it... The end tanks, the core tubes, everything.. Look for corrosion. Look at where sensors and **** screw into it.
The water pump has a weep hole near the shaft. If it's leaking from there, it's an indication that the seal has failed. The weep hole keeps the coolant from damaging the bearing and seizing the pump up. Replace it soon.
On some cars, theres a condensation tube to take the condensation from the A/C out of the car. Many cars have the A/C evaporator coil in the same housing as the heater core. If the heater core is leaking, it could possibly be coming out of here and getting on the ground. Check it out.
1.) On the ground, or your garage floor... Check for puddles, Park on newspaper or a cardboard box... See where it comes from. There are several components it can be coming from, listed later...
2.) On the car's floorboard... Heater core or heater control valve. Under the dash. Quick fix is to find the heater hoses that go through the fire wall in the engine bay and disconnect them and connect them together. This effectively takes the heater core out of the loop. It, however, leaves you with no heat. Actual fix is to take the dash apart and replace the leaky components.
3.) Out the tail pipe... This is the bad one. It's the sign of a blown head gasket on boingers and blown water seals on rotaries. Try this one day. After it's sat for a while (Overnight), remove the spark plugs. Then crank it. Coolant coming out of the saprk plug holes is the sure sign. No choice but to rebuild. Bandaid fix is Bars-Leaks.
Okay, If it's coming out from under the car, first check where ever hoses go. Bend the hoses, Squeeze them. If you bend a hose and feel a cracking inside, replace it. Hoses have two layers with string mesh in between... The cracking feeling is the strings breaking down.
Check the radiator... All of it... The end tanks, the core tubes, everything.. Look for corrosion. Look at where sensors and **** screw into it.
The water pump has a weep hole near the shaft. If it's leaking from there, it's an indication that the seal has failed. The weep hole keeps the coolant from damaging the bearing and seizing the pump up. Replace it soon.
On some cars, theres a condensation tube to take the condensation from the A/C out of the car. Many cars have the A/C evaporator coil in the same housing as the heater core. If the heater core is leaking, it could possibly be coming out of here and getting on the ground. Check it out.
12-06-02, 07:34 PM
#44
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Forgot to mention one thing...
Coolant in the combustion chamber cal also be due to coolant passages to the intake manifold leaking...
To tell the difference between this and a blown water seal, crank the engine with the radiator cap off... See bubbles, water seal.. No... Intake manifold.
The excess pressure in the cooling system is probably engine compression from a blown water seal though.
Smell your coolant.. If it smells like gas or exhaust, it's probably a water seal...
Still, never hurts to double check.
Coolant in the combustion chamber cal also be due to coolant passages to the intake manifold leaking...
To tell the difference between this and a blown water seal, crank the engine with the radiator cap off... See bubbles, water seal.. No... Intake manifold.
The excess pressure in the cooling system is probably engine compression from a blown water seal though.
Smell your coolant.. If it smells like gas or exhaust, it's probably a water seal...
Still, never hurts to double check.
12-07-02, 01:37 AM
#45
To tell the difference between this and a blown water seal, crank the engine with the radiator cap off... See bubbles, water seal.. No... Intake manifold.
Its a brand new radiator and hoses on there, so they "shouldnt leak". The radiator was actually pressure tested, and Ive seen no signs of leaking hoses. The overflow tank seems to be the culprit (see below).
Today, I noticed an intersting thing. The cap for my overflow tank was/is cracked and broken. So anything pushed into there couldnt be drawn back out because there would be no suction because of this large hole. that was probably where SOME of my coolant was going, but theres still the clouds of white smoke and the trails of water out the tail pipes, pluss the pressure in the system even after all night.
~T.J.
12-07-02, 01:42 AM
#46
Oh yeah, and when I first start it in the morning, sometimes it kinda sounds/feels like its running on one rotor 
. It just runs really rough, and only comes up to like 2K RPMS and doesnt sound right. Then all of a sudden it will perk up and run right after like 10 seconds. After this it will make its way up to 4K RPMs and sounds normal, but it kinda misses and pops and everytime it does, it puffs out a nice cloud of white smoke...Its almost like its clearing its throat or something, getting all that water outta there . I dont know if this is related or not. Just wanted some input about this too 
. Thanks guys.
~T.J.
. It just runs really rough, and only comes up to like 2K RPMS and doesnt sound right. Then all of a sudden it will perk up and run right after like 10 seconds. After this it will make its way up to 4K RPMs and sounds normal, but it kinda misses and pops and everytime it does, it puffs out a nice cloud of white smoke...Its almost like its clearing its throat or something, getting all that water outta there . I dont know if this is related or not. Just wanted some input about this too . Thanks guys.~T.J.
12-07-02, 03:05 AM
#47
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Originally posted by Strider
...what was Avagadro's number again??? 6 point something.
Right now our heat exchangers for the plant I work at are creating snow. I kid you not. They use water evaporation for cooling (the towers cascade water over a tall, extensive series of vanes while giant fans draw air over the cascading water and blow it straight up.) Anyway, the water vapor plume is rising a couple hundred feet in the air, then condensing, then freezing and making snow. They had to get the plows out today to plow the parking lots. Drive 1 mile out the front gate and the snow stops. In order to reject roughly 3000 megawatts of heat to the atmosphere for our power cycle, we evaporate approximately 15000 gallons of water per minute into the air. Normally in the summertime it works really well. In the wintertime we get snow. Probably the worlds most expensive snow machine....too bad there is no slopes to ski on out here.
...what was Avagadro's number again??? 6 point something.
Right now our heat exchangers for the plant I work at are creating snow. I kid you not. They use water evaporation for cooling (the towers cascade water over a tall, extensive series of vanes while giant fans draw air over the cascading water and blow it straight up.) Anyway, the water vapor plume is rising a couple hundred feet in the air, then condensing, then freezing and making snow. They had to get the plows out today to plow the parking lots. Drive 1 mile out the front gate and the snow stops. In order to reject roughly 3000 megawatts of heat to the atmosphere for our power cycle, we evaporate approximately 15000 gallons of water per minute into the air. Normally in the summertime it works really well. In the wintertime we get snow. Probably the worlds most expensive snow machine....too bad there is no slopes to ski on out here.
sounds like a nuclear powerplant.....is that where you're working at? that's a lot of water in the air....doesn't that make the air more humid?
12-07-02, 03:33 PM
#48
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Originally posted by RotorMotorDriver
Oh yeah, and when I first start it in the morning, sometimes it kinda sounds/feels like its running on one rotor. It just runs really rough, and only comes up to like 2K RPMS and doesnt sound right. Then all of a sudden it will perk up and run right after like 10 seconds. After this it will make its way up to 4K RPMs and sounds normal, but it kinda misses and pops and everytime it does, it puffs out a nice cloud of white smoke...Its almost like its clearing its throat or something, getting all that water outta there . I dont know if this is related or not. Just wanted some input about this too . Thanks guys.
~T.J.
Oh yeah, and when I first start it in the morning, sometimes it kinda sounds/feels like its running on one rotor
. It just runs really rough, and only comes up to like 2K RPMS and doesnt sound right. Then all of a sudden it will perk up and run right after like 10 seconds. After this it will make its way up to 4K RPMs and sounds normal, but it kinda misses and pops and everytime it does, it puffs out a nice cloud of white smoke...Its almost like its clearing its throat or something, getting all that water outta there . I dont know if this is related or not. Just wanted some input about this too . Thanks guys.~T.J.