and I was like OMG WEEEEEEEEE!

Sterling, get your "sterlingcharger" finished now damnit - then we can use my car as an example.

 

hey sterling long time no see. If you read my post i am having to go efi. Just was having to many problems. Plus this will give me the exact setup like your running in a vaccum state. The draw backs to draw through and egnormous. So i decide to take the some what easier way out and build an efi system. hopfully providing i keep one it by summer i should have it done. Maybe thne i can come down and see you. Here is something that might intrest you. my friend has a thunder bird sc five speed and he has 212k on it and the super charger has never been touched. Gotta love an eaton.

jr

 

Actually, I've seen the supercharger-turbo mixed induction thing before on a MR2... now that thing launched like a bat out of hell (the SC is bypassed when the turbo out guns it). Take a chill-pill Sterling, and some of your own medicine.... don't bash what you don't know or understand.

As far as boosting a rotary, it seems that for the COST SC is not the easiest or cheapest way to go. I never did bash supercharging, just mentioned that for an equal priced setup, you'll be running 15psi, and I'd be capable of running 25+. You are talking serious SC with water injection / intercoooler to cool the charge.... sounds like your dumping a ton of money into it, can't wait to see it running.

 

I'm not dumping hardly anything into it. I'm building it all on my own. Everything is used. The biggest investment will be my time. Budget set for under 2 Grand.

BTW, I understand the concept just fine. I just think it's stupid. It's a waste of engineering, fabrication and money. If either the turbo or the supercharger was done right in the first place, then niether would need the other.

Not all turbos have such a big deal lag problem, and if a supercharger is set up correctly with a little thought instead of everybodys "Legoland" mentality of 'Bolt-On Boost", then a supercharger does'nt have to suffer this great big BS thing of "running out of boost up high".

If a supercharger runs out of boost in the high end, and the the drive is maxed out, then it's too damn small. Plain and simple.
A search of the Camden 5 inch will yield testimony to that. Everyone says get the larger.

There are lots of things that could be done that noone seems to want to take the plunge into.
I have yet to see a turbo that uses two seperate exhaust turbines with different fin configurations and a simple exhaust valve. No need for a twin. Make the turbo beefy enough, and there you go. Have at it.

...And just realize- Someone starts my fire goin when a supercharger question is asked, and someone feels the compelling urge much like a dog is compelled to hump someones leg- to scream out "Turbo Blah Blah Blah!" like a Turrets victim during Saturday morning mass.
Get a ****** life. Answer the damn question, or just sit your fat *** there and read the screen. But don't start talking about apples at a Citrus Farmers convention, O.K.?
W-T-F?

 

good to have you back sterling.

 

And BTW, I will be able to run well over 20 psi with my supercharger.
25 psi will eventually kill just about anything if it were run constantly like that. But with my plenum design, I'll be able to
#1- regulate boost from the cockpit,
#2- override the system by either shutting it down completely or running constant boost from the cockpit,
#3- have the ability to turn on or off a thermostat in the plenum that will automatically regulate bypass according to charge temperature,
#4- set a BOV to whatever boost I need to. This will be an integral design in the Eaton plenum.

I'm building a carburetor and manifold design (kinda rolled into one) that will have water inction fittings, and fittings for fuel injectors. The injectors will run on a seperate efi fuel pump and will take the place of the mechanical accelerator pump.

The carb box will use camed locking levers much like bicycles use. The wole five sides of the box will com off as opposed to just the top.
With my carb design (totally a rip off of the Nikki specs, but aligned like an Autolite Boss 302 Carb- Just try finding one of those things!) I will be able to access all of the air bleeds and fuel jets very easily.

Should be pretty neat.
I might get done with it by 2012.

 

how can you setup the blower to have variable boost levels?
(this is not to be questioning you, i just have no idea how)

 

I'd imagine he'd accomplish that by simply releasing undesired pressure (hint: Blow off valve)

 

Nah that would just be a relief valve, limiting max pressure. You'l need a nice big goddamn regulator, cockpit adjustable of course, right Sterling old boy?

 

I'm gonna start collecting these priceless gems
Or maybe put it in my sig like peejay did.

 

Sterling is great fun - especially when he starts going off. I'd love to go out drinking with him as I suspect the evening would be hilarious!

 

Sterling, how efficient do you think that **** will be at 20+psi? Just asking a question.

 

call me dumb but ive ridden in a turbo charged car and a supercharged car..both are very good...neather of the SUCK they just have some pros and cons..im not entiteled to say what they are b/c i dont wanna be flamed but each power sourse is better than none...just my 2 cents

Stepdaddy

 

p.s. i guess i should have read page 2....like i said my 2 cents

 

I find it a little funny, don't you, that the one that got everyone on egg shells is the one going SC

But, in many words the answer to the questions asked (where is the thread poster anyway...)

Yea probaly, but a good one.... not yet, as far as I know

yea, atkins makes one.... but the performance not worth the price vs other methods of forced induction

This one is obviously up for debate.... but sterling seems to be at least headed in the right direction. This project though is one frought with new unforseen problems that will require serious fabrication, and probably several itterations to perfect. Not for the weak of heart, and not for the average joe....

I'd love to see a blown first gen in action.... if you have the ***** to see it through, go for it.

 

Originally posted by fatboy7
...bingo! Good answering.
And don't mind me, I'm just me. I don't want anyone walking on eggshells 'round me. Just know what you're talking about when you're talking is all (and you do seem to know-).

riffraff asks;
"how can you setup the blower to have variable boost levels?"

In order to change boost level on the Camden SC (and generally accepted practice on all SCs) you have to change pulley diameters. This changes the speed at which the SC revs at a given engine RPM, and so obviously changes boost pressure.

A turbo creats pressure by spinning faster and faster as well, but the engine has to first blow some worthy exhaust to get it going. People bitch about lag like their all pros on the drag circuit. (Gimme a break!- Stepdaddy said it right when he said, "...neather of the SUCK they just have some pros and cons."). But the phrase "Building boost" is kinda the way to say it. The catch with turbos and centrafugal blowers is that they DO NOT build boost linearly...REGARDLESS of exhaust output. It would have to be so well timed and engineered to have exhaust flow spin that turbo just right to give linear boost with engine RPM...Practically impossible. The reason is simple; Centrafugals build exponentially.
Boost is regulated with BOVs or whatever. (I like the really stupid adds for the ones that make alot of noise. Gimme a ****** break!)

With my design - which is just a bastardization of the Eaton M-62 integral bypass design- I'll simply slap a big-*** pulley on my engine, and have the Eaton M-90 pulleyed to 16,000 RPM at 8000 engine RPM, make enough boost to make the engine puke, and simply regulate a bypass butterfly valve that is installed in the wall in the plenum under the blower between the intake and output. The SC won't make max boost right off the line - just as a matter of the physics of compressing air as the volume increases- But damn close to the amount. But my SC will utilize the same bypass valve so that during cruise or no load driving, it opens, and I'm no longer boosting. A pressure sensitive fuel regulator sits in the box with the carb, and eveyone is happy.

The Eaton M-90 has a displacement of 1.5 liters.
Using this boinger equasion, I was happy to see that the Eaton was wayyy big enough.
(Courtesy of Mar3 ) -


Boost =[(25.58 x SC Displacement x SC Ratio) / Engine Displcement] - 14.7

This gave me a maximum boost of...
52 psi!!!

-Then the cold raw icy truth scraed my whole naked body...The boinger equasion is really designed for engines that fire half the "Displacement" value they really have in one revolution.
"suxsobad!"
So then I double "ED" in the equasion to arrive at a much more realistic, albeit humble 18.75 psi.

Ehhh. Not so bad. Oh well- still worth doing, IMO.
Why the "hub-bub" about going thru all the crap of a bypass? Well good source has the Camden 7 incher tested at a whopping 70 HP to spin it!!!
The Eaton?- 45 HP @ 10 psi. Bitchin amount needed. But using a bypass valve, according to Eaton, it only takes 3 HP to spin it at 12 K RPM. The carb sees no boost at that point, and simply takes in from the intake filtered air like a really ridiculously long snorkle. But who cares? It only comes on when you accelerate. Is'nt that the only time you need it anyway?

I don't **** on the Camden. I just think they could do some revisions, or at least offer a kit to do them. Having a supercharger with no intercooler just screams of "good ole boy"ness. Science is science, and there's just no disputing #s!

Take a gander at this water injection stuff, coutesy my buddies at Mazspeed:
Water Injection Cooling Numbers (****** Yeah, Man!!!)
I figure if I concentrate my efforts on keeping my charge as cool as possible, 18 psi with an estimated loss of 15% (= a cool solid 15 psi) should yield me about 300 HP from my stockport 12A
HP = [(boost + atmospheric) x HP] / atmopheric

Revhed asked, "Sterling, how efficient do you think that **** will be at 20+psi?"

My answer is simply this- I'm assuming that the Eaton SCs that are renowned for 100K mile service are about as efficient as you can expect from a production roots that's built for longevity.
Magnacharger and Magnasun and someone else, all are companies specializing in porting Eaton blowers and producing different nose cones for them. So obviously, they've gotten it down to where they can make it even more efficient, but the cost is extreme for the gains.
My uneducated speculative guess is that at 15 psi cool pressure (which in my mind is probably like trying to force quicksand through the motor) it'll probably see close to what the Camden sees as far as HP draw.
So really, now we're down to 230 HP!
Still a damn good kick in the ***, though.
The Camden probably will give another 80% HP increase without cooling @ 15 psi, but they don't subtract the 70 HP it takes to turn it! (Doubt they woulda sold the five they did on Ebay this year had they mentioned that!)- But this is with any supercharger.

BTW, I don't really know squat. I learned all this on the web.

 

well I searched once for supercharger post (got nothing fron the search but now I don't know why). now it seems I started a war with sterling at the head of it.

I plan on doing a lot more research before I decide but thanks for the info

 

You people can shure make alot of posts on a thred in 24 hours I thought we were talking about SUPERCHARGERS... Positive displacement blowers are different... LETS NOT GET IN A ARGUMENT OVER THAT... atkins super chargers and the VAST MAJORITY of other superchargers on the market DO NOT spool up until redline... and as far as even haveing a little more boost in the EXTREAMLY LOW RPM IE 1500-2000 rpm doesnt really benifit the rotary much... it makes most of its power in the upper rpm... I dont care if your road racing or what, even with a postive displacement blower if you dont down shift before the cornor and keep your revs up your a fool... the ONLY advantage a PDB will have is if you run a auto tranny... as far as hondas go there fwd ECONOMY CARS... they cant do ANYTHING unless a BUNCH of $$$ is thrown at them and even then they do not have the power potential OR traction that maney other import cars have... in the 80's maney people were modifiying 305 camaros... they were popular... are they good cars... NO it was a fad nothing more... the only reason why they have gotten so popular is people that know nothing about cars see other modified hondas on the streets and they have one... they decide to modifiy them and think there somthing special THERE NOT... there are also A BUNCH of people out there with them... hints why SO MANEY PEOPLE ARE MODIFYING THEM...and the only reason why you MIGHT see them do something in the mod class or the hot rod class is becuase the hot rod class is only for fwd cars... the mod class gives a 750 lbs wieght break to fwd 4 cyl cars compared to the rwd rotary cars or 6 cyl cars running in that class... Hondas are expensive to mod... b18 c5 j spec motors go for as much as a 2jz or a 20b does AND DO NOT have the same power potential... they hold there value well and that means there expensive to buy everyone wants them... high demand drives up there price... and there still fwd economy cars... I think that is just about it... oh yeah if you dont beleave me about the super charger and where it makes its boost why dont you call up atkins and ask them... and if I am wrong I am wrong... and I will admit it... I have heard of only a few sc's that spool up at low rpm... and to the best of my knowlege atkins superchargers are NOT one of them...

 

So, where would I post a complaint about the school system these days? Isn't spelling part of a rudimentary education anymore? Jeez, one tries to sound intelligent, but when 'tehy mispel werdz' and butcher grammar like it's going out of style, it's hard to come across as anything other than plebian at best.

Basic economy shows that high demand will not drive up a price, only high demand coupled with low supply. I mean, I learned that in the 6th grade in the public school system of Northern Virginia (and don't even get me started on the schools down here in Florida)...

 

Please man dont get on me about my spelling... I am typeing fast my computer is out in the shop it is damn cold in here and SOMETIMES I mispell words and sometimes I just done give a damn if I mis spell words... There are alot of chevettes out there... there not worth a damn thing... you can say the same about alot of cars that were produced in great numbers... DEMAND DRIVES PRICES NO MATTER IF 10 were made or if 2,000,000 were made... lets take a tercel of the same year... or a corrolla... a honda civic will fetch more cash.... Your trying to discredit me... try to discredit MY ARGUMENT... But I guess people like you cant pratch...

 

*Sterling mode on* This is the biggest load of drivel I've read in a good while. And considering the usual quality of posts on this forum that's guite an achievment.

The majority of superchargers on the market, including most if not all those used in factory supercharged cars are positive displacement superchargers (also known as Rootes)! And guess what, so is the Atkins system!

Why don't you do some research on the different types of blowers and how they work before offering your opinion on a subject you obviously have no clue about. *Sterling mode off*

 

-Yeah, uhhm- yer startin ta **** me off now. Try not to be such a moron, o.k.? You're not fooling anyone here by spouting off a few bits about some boingers you know of.
Look up the difference between positive displacement superchargers and centrafugal superchargers.

Ahh fuckit. Know what? -Just ferget it. Yer a waste a time. I can't sit here for another ****** hour spewing out all the basics of superchargers and supercharging so that you can be up to speed with everyone else. That's your job. The info is out there. LOTZ.
But stop making a nuicance of yerself, alright?

 

Simply put, supercharging sucks...... dollar for dollar any power adder is more eccinomical with better results...I have driven many supercharged cars, (not just rotarys) and have not been impressed....I dont like the idea of adding ANYTHING to my car that takes at least 10 % of the engines power just to turn it!!! thats not logical unless the supercharger your turning makes 500 hp!!that blower setup is common on Mustang's...also one of my favorite things about a rotary is there no engine vibration!!! add a supercharger.... instant motor vibratition, yuk!!! Another problem that is common with supercharging a rotary is belt slippage.... rotary's rev so quicky it's hard to keep the belt from slipping..... , and if you overtighten the belt you bend the crank...that sucks!! just my 2 cents...

 

Okay my bad the atkins system is a POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT SYSTEM... I stand by what I said about Super Chargers... Super chargers meaning centrafugal super chargers...

 

notice the defensive stance... the tail firmly between the legs to cover the genitals... Yes sir, this is truly an animal in retreat.

The problem is, you keep switching from supercharger to Atkins supercharger to now 'centrafugal super chargers'. You're jumping around so much that I'm getting dizzy!

I obviously don't need to discredit you, you're doing a fantastic job on your own.



Still waiting on this one...