Stock brake improvements?
12-30-05, 12:37 PM
#1
Stock brake improvements?
I am looking for opinions on brake pads and fluid for a stock GSL brake set up, the car will get used for daily driving with some spirited fun and autocrossing.
Looking for experiences from replacements parts.
I love the Axxis Ultimates, but am thinking the Metal Masters may be more suitable for 95% road use.
Other options?
Also brake fluids? which DOT, boiling temps....
Looking for experiences from replacements parts.
I love the Axxis Ultimates, but am thinking the Metal Masters may be more suitable for 95% road use.
Other options?
Also brake fluids? which DOT, boiling temps....
12-30-05, 02:19 PM
#2
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Hey there, you PM'd me, and I got back to you (re: MPG).
On this one, the single biggest improvement that you can make in a GSL braking system is to replace your Master Cylinder and proportioning valve as a unit, and then replace your brake lines with Stainless Steel and Silicone flexible lines. This one modification will dramatically increase your ability to modulate braking for spirited driving or Autocross use.
Beyond that, the next step would be to add some Street/Performance pads (I like Hawk HP+ for Street) and then bleed the whole system with new hydraulic fluid. In reality, the hydraulic fluid brand shouldn't matter much as long as it's DOT certified and of good quality. Some of the racing stuff is designed not to boil, but you won't get your 1st Gen brakes that hot anyway, unless you're running races DOWN Pike's Peak!
With these mods done, you should be in great shape as far as your brakes are concerned. A step beyond that would be to look into new brake rotors all around (GSL's have un-vented rears), to get a smooth and clean surface for the brake pads to ride against - this will return the car to factory new performance or better. Old rotors can develop pitting and grooves from long-term use, and can also develop Austentite (sp?) inclusions in the metal due to overheating. This inconsistency in the metal structure will then cause heating in that one spot, and will also lead to pads wearing strangely thus not applying all of their surface area to maximum braking effect.
Another vastly important factor in getting good brake performance is your tires. The brakes can only stop the car as quickly as your tires can keep up, since any car should be able to lock up all 4 tires from 40-50 mph (I don't recommend trying this...). The point is that if you have the best brake components in the world, it won't make up for running around on the cheapest $100 set of Pep-Boys brand tires.
I highly recommend a good quality Street tire by any of the major manufacturers (Yoko, BF, Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli - in no particular order) that offers a good tread pattern with big blocks, along with a treadwear rating no HIGHER than about 300. Once you go 300+ on treadwear rating, the rubber compound is too hard to offer any real traction which affects both acceleration and braking performance.
Here in the AZ desert, I can get away with 400 treadwear rating (Yoko AVS), but that's only because 1/2 the year, the asphalt temperatures are already above 150F. If you live in colder country, you'll want to choose an all season tire which offers the best benefits. HTH,
On this one, the single biggest improvement that you can make in a GSL braking system is to replace your Master Cylinder and proportioning valve as a unit, and then replace your brake lines with Stainless Steel and Silicone flexible lines. This one modification will dramatically increase your ability to modulate braking for spirited driving or Autocross use.
Beyond that, the next step would be to add some Street/Performance pads (I like Hawk HP+ for Street) and then bleed the whole system with new hydraulic fluid. In reality, the hydraulic fluid brand shouldn't matter much as long as it's DOT certified and of good quality. Some of the racing stuff is designed not to boil, but you won't get your 1st Gen brakes that hot anyway, unless you're running races DOWN Pike's Peak!
With these mods done, you should be in great shape as far as your brakes are concerned. A step beyond that would be to look into new brake rotors all around (GSL's have un-vented rears), to get a smooth and clean surface for the brake pads to ride against - this will return the car to factory new performance or better. Old rotors can develop pitting and grooves from long-term use, and can also develop Austentite (sp?) inclusions in the metal due to overheating. This inconsistency in the metal structure will then cause heating in that one spot, and will also lead to pads wearing strangely thus not applying all of their surface area to maximum braking effect.
Another vastly important factor in getting good brake performance is your tires. The brakes can only stop the car as quickly as your tires can keep up, since any car should be able to lock up all 4 tires from 40-50 mph (I don't recommend trying this...). The point is that if you have the best brake components in the world, it won't make up for running around on the cheapest $100 set of Pep-Boys brand tires.
I highly recommend a good quality Street tire by any of the major manufacturers (Yoko, BF, Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli - in no particular order) that offers a good tread pattern with big blocks, along with a treadwear rating no HIGHER than about 300. Once you go 300+ on treadwear rating, the rubber compound is too hard to offer any real traction which affects both acceleration and braking performance.
Here in the AZ desert, I can get away with 400 treadwear rating (Yoko AVS), but that's only because 1/2 the year, the asphalt temperatures are already above 150F. If you live in colder country, you'll want to choose an all season tire which offers the best benefits. HTH,
12-30-05, 02:59 PM
#4
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Factory replacement (or rebuild), simple as that.
The reason why I recommend replacing the BMC is because the stock units are pretty robust, but over time, the cylinder bores become scored and can allow some 'blowby' seepage of brake fluid under braking pressure - you'll never see this other than reduced pedal pressure because the fluid is leaking past the primary rubber 'cup' and back into the reservoir. A tell-tale sign is brake fluid leaking past the sealing rubber and running down the inside of your firewall where the brake pedal pushrod goes into it; but, by then, it's too late.
Replacing with new or rebuilt will get you a new brake proportioning column with new seals, a new reservoir, and return the brake proportioning system to stock specifications. You don't need an adjustable racing prop. valve because the car isn't that heavy - stock bias is just about perfect unless you starting changing drastic suspension components and/or engine output.
Once you have a new prop. valve in there, you'll be able to feel the smoothness of the brake pedal, which adds to the effect of replacing the fluid and adding the SS brake lines. All of these components are additive, so if you do them all at once you will be amazed at the difference. Do them in smaller steps, and you might not feel the immediate effects.
The reason why I recommend replacing the BMC is because the stock units are pretty robust, but over time, the cylinder bores become scored and can allow some 'blowby' seepage of brake fluid under braking pressure - you'll never see this other than reduced pedal pressure because the fluid is leaking past the primary rubber 'cup' and back into the reservoir. A tell-tale sign is brake fluid leaking past the sealing rubber and running down the inside of your firewall where the brake pedal pushrod goes into it; but, by then, it's too late.
Replacing with new or rebuilt will get you a new brake proportioning column with new seals, a new reservoir, and return the brake proportioning system to stock specifications. You don't need an adjustable racing prop. valve because the car isn't that heavy - stock bias is just about perfect unless you starting changing drastic suspension components and/or engine output.
Once you have a new prop. valve in there, you'll be able to feel the smoothness of the brake pedal, which adds to the effect of replacing the fluid and adding the SS brake lines. All of these components are additive, so if you do them all at once you will be amazed at the difference. Do them in smaller steps, and you might not feel the immediate effects.
12-30-05, 09:30 PM
#7
FB+FC=F-ME
I ran Hawk SP pads for a short time.The stopped VERY well,but squeeked and dusted something fierce.I changed to EBC Green pads and they remedied all that.They arent as bitey as the HP,but they are silent and dont turn my white wheels black in 1 day....(seriously,1 day)
Agree on the SS lines,just be sure they are legal versions and are installed very carfully.
Be sure to lube up and inspect the caliper slide pins every time you do brakes.Ive found siezed pins after only a year of running, since the last service.
Some speed bleeders are a great,cheap trick to making bleeding and fluid flushing easy.Annual fluid flushes are cheap and an ideal way to keep your brakes tip-top.
Ford has 550* boiling point DOT3 fluid that is cheap and recommended by many.
Agree on the SS lines,just be sure they are legal versions and are installed very carfully.
Be sure to lube up and inspect the caliper slide pins every time you do brakes.Ive found siezed pins after only a year of running, since the last service.
Some speed bleeders are a great,cheap trick to making bleeding and fluid flushing easy.Annual fluid flushes are cheap and an ideal way to keep your brakes tip-top.
Ford has 550* boiling point DOT3 fluid that is cheap and recommended by many.
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01-01-06, 08:22 PM
#8
Proportioning valve
[QUOTE=LongDuck
On this one, the single biggest improvement that you can make in a GSL braking system is to replace your Master Cylinder and proportioning valve as a unit[/QUOTE]
Were's the best place to find a new proportioning valve? Dealer only?
Thanks!
On this one, the single biggest improvement that you can make in a GSL braking system is to replace your Master Cylinder and proportioning valve as a unit[/QUOTE]
Were's the best place to find a new proportioning valve? Dealer only?
Thanks!
01-01-06, 08:56 PM
#9
Absolute Power is Awesome
My experience:
I've been using Hawk HPS pads for about 2 years. At the same time, I replaced the brake fluid. The pads have noticeably improved the brake feel and can much more easily lock the tires. They do give off dust, rust colored dust lightly coats my wheels and it's a bit of work to get it off. There's no squeeking. They were properly bedded in when installed, which they say is important. I've driven around in a couple of FDs with Hawk HP+ pads. They squeeked A LOT and are supposed to be hard on the rotors. I'd go with the HPS.
About a year ago, I changed over to stainless steel brake lines, keeping everything else the same. I honestly didn't notice a difference. In a 20+ year old car though, it's not a bad idea to replace the lines anyway and when you do, you may as well go with stainless braided.
I've been using Hawk HPS pads for about 2 years. At the same time, I replaced the brake fluid. The pads have noticeably improved the brake feel and can much more easily lock the tires. They do give off dust, rust colored dust lightly coats my wheels and it's a bit of work to get it off. There's no squeeking. They were properly bedded in when installed, which they say is important. I've driven around in a couple of FDs with Hawk HP+ pads. They squeeked A LOT and are supposed to be hard on the rotors. I'd go with the HPS.
About a year ago, I changed over to stainless steel brake lines, keeping everything else the same. I honestly didn't notice a difference. In a 20+ year old car though, it's not a bad idea to replace the lines anyway and when you do, you may as well go with stainless braided.
01-02-06, 04:22 PM
#11
the Appleton Don
related topic: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=929%2A
stainless steel/Teflon lines
Hawk HP+ pads
new or rebuilt calipers
you won't believe the difference
stainless steel/Teflon lines
Hawk HP+ pads
new or rebuilt calipers
you won't believe the difference
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