Pele

iTrader: (28)

Okay, so we all agree ATF does NOT go into the intake or deliberately into the combustion chamber for ANY reason...

Wasn't there a way you could clean engines with ATF? Put it in the oil and idle for 5 mins before an oil change or something?

I know they sell **** that you use for that, it basically amounts to paint thinner or kerosene... (Hell, for what they charge for that stuff at the parts store, I can go out an buy a gallon of kerosene or paint thinner.)

I've used a mixture of ATF and paint thinner (Mix half pint of each in a bottle) and poured it in engines that haven't seen an oil change in forever and have seen a noticable decrease in the sludge caked to the rocker arms and ****, as well and more **** in the old oil that I remove.

I just wanna know where the ATF idea came from... Not necessarily rotary specific. I know we got some "Ye Olde School" mechanics and wrenchers in here that can shed some light on it.

vipernicus42

iTrader: (4)

As per the title: Real Uses for ATF (Other than as oil in Automatic Transmissions)

ATF Soup:

1/2 pt of ATF
2L Chicken Broth
a sprig of parsley
2 lean chicken breasts, cooked and chopped into cubes
a little blinker fluid to taste

Jon

Brianhsval

I am old and heard about it when I was young, from a old guy. Pour a quart in with the oil 500 miles before an oil change. Pour it through the carb. Great stuff fro getting rid of carbon build up. Of course all this was done with piston motors, I have never used it with my rotary. There is other stuff out there these days to use, but on the piston motors I own I still use it. Old and stuck in my ways I guess.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

The Mazspeed forum mainly, and bobrx7 specifically. For some reason, he's been into this ATF crap for a very long time. I don't understand it. He appearantly puts a small amount into the combustion chamber each fall before he stores it for the winter. I've never known of anybody else who does this. What's really disturbing about him is that he was recently very desperate to sell his RX-7 for some reason. He spent so much time over the years doing all sorts of enthusiast-type stuff to it, that it's hard to believe he would sell it simply for the reasons stated in his add, alone. I haven't seen him post since. Heh, I could say I need to sell one of my REPUs because I've got a baby one the way, or I need some cash for a down payment on a house, but that wouldn't make it true.

Man, I don't feel good about dissing on that guy, but his views on ATF make him look like a complete moron.

Here is a quote from the beginning of his article.Bullshit! Mileage is what wears apex seals. Carbon, by comparison, is as soft as a baby's, well, you know. Carbon does not break apex seals. Carbon, while it does prevent apex seals from moving freely in their slots, is not the cause of the problem. Attention must to be paid to the actual cause of the carbon problem, and then a fix must be performed. The symptom is not the disease. Solve the carbon problem itself first instead of pouring a bunch of ATF down your carb or the plug holes of RE-EGI/whatever.

Just for comparison's sake, my 20B had 25PSI on all three rotors, according to the importer I purchased it from. The apex seals would barely move in their slots. I dumped some MMO into each intake port and cranked it by hand untill all the large chunks of carbon had been floated out of the exhaust ports, and the MMO was coming out red instead of black. Some months later, I hooked up a starter that ended up being bad (it cranked rather slowly and melted the insulation, to give you an idea of how bad it was), but I didn't know this at the time while bolting it to the engine. Anyway, even with the slow cranking starter, my engine would fire up when enough gas would be sucked into the intake manifold from the 2 rotor carb I had temporarily installed on it. It wouldn't idle or stay running for very long, but it would fire up each time, even at such a slow cranking speed. I'd say the apex seals have been rehabilitated.

It didn't smoke more than a small puff for one second each time it'd fire up (after the MMO residue had burned off which took all of a few seconds). I take this to mean MMO doesn't eat oil O rings.

You wanna know the real reason why it was all carboned up? The PO had installed stock FC plugs in it which are one heat range too cold for the way a 20B is driven (automatic luxury car = slow around town type stuff). I don't think the plugs ever reached self-cleaning temperatures.

I'm extremely glad I never poured any ATF into my engine. What I've learned about ATF, mostly from this forum and a little from nopistons, is that ATF:

Eats soft seals, including oil O rings.
Turns into a solid when burned, clogging cats.
Deposits junk on spark plugs, so they must be changed when an ATF treatment is performed.
Was formulated to resist burning.

DON'T USE ATF IN YOUR ROTARY ENGINE. Fix the problem that is causing the carbon, not just the carbon itself.

bouis

I don't claim to be the most experienced guy here, but I know a lot of regular mechanic types who use ATF exactly the way (some) rotary people do. The stuff lasts a long time and it's full of detergents that keep sludge from building up or parts from rusting. It works just like MMO in storing and "reviving" engines.

What bobrx7 was talking about when he said "common causes of failure" was carbon locking where the engine won't turn over at all. Some folks just don't know what to do and try to force it, or give up on it.

bouis

I mean, I don't think that he ever suggested ATF as a regular maintenance thing, unless you're storing the car... and I can see where he was coming from in doing it then -- though, yes, MMO is probably better.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

When I pulled the motor from my project car back in the winter I poured a large amount of atf down there and every few weeks since have turned the motor over. I pulled the exhaust manifold off the other day (starting to work on the motor) and turned it over to get most of that stuff out, man you wouldn't believe how much carbon and **** was in the atf coming out of there. I also looked in through the exhaust ports and the inside of that motor is insanely clean, I'm fully convinced that ATF is good for cleaning out the engine. Now as far as a maintanene thing I don't know about that, but its good for storage thats for sure.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Oh, I'm sure it cleans the metal parts just fine. Good luck with your soft seals.

bouis

Since when does ATF eat soft seals? I find that hard to believe, consider that it's used in automatic transmissions that have plenty of soft seals. Hell, on its way to the cooler, it runs through cheapo rubber hoses held on with finger-pinch clips and rarely leaks.

coldy13

If there's any chance that ATF can damage your engine in any way, why still insist on using it? MMO has all the benefits and is proven to do no harm to any part of the engine. STOP USING ATF AND GO BUY SOME MMO!!!

bouis

I don't use ATF, never had the need to. I'm just curious.

rotary_neubie

In my area, there is a rotary mechanic, the only one i know of around here. He suggested to me at one point to mix atf along with solvent, 50/50 to remove carbon. He said hes been doing it for years. I have yet to do that..... and would rather hunt around for MMO.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

The info came from various sources (nopistons etc), so if others have said ATF eats soft seals, I'm inclinded to believe them. There is no way that I'd ever risk one of my engines with ATF.Go to an autoparts store and ask for ATF fluid cooler lines specifically. If they hand you some cheap rubber hose, hand it back and run away. There is a difference, and any competent parts jocky will grab the right stuff.

nimrodTT

ATF does not eat viton, that's gotta be the stupidest thing I've heard all day.

Yet more ignorance spread around on the old discussion of ATF/MMO. I'll let you all in on a little secret: either can clean out carbon and temporarily bump compression (like most any light oil), but neither performs magic. I'll take a good quality penetrating oil over either any day.

RotorMotorDriver

iTrader: (1)

Since when did we determine ATF is bad? I never used the trick, I went with MMO but damn, I mustve missed a lot...

~T.J.

vipernicus42

iTrader: (4)

TJ, were you around for the release of the decarbonizing article? There were some threads around then that made ATF bad, and the article didn't help! I used ATF when I unsiezed my engine and haven't seen any adverse effects, but when I store the engine, I just use a few tbsp of 20w50 and turn the engine a few times.. that lasts the winter. I wouldn't use ATF in my engine again, unless I let it sit for 5yrs to sieze again!

Jon

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

A little oil is great. I've use oil years before ever reading about the ATF treatment/trick on the internet. Good thing.

bouis

I don't think that there's any difference between ATF hoses and any regular oil safe rubber hose. Maybe I'm wrong...

rotary_neubie

Someone send this into Myth-busters......

Brianhsval

I read the other thread and I have read this one as well as already stated my uses. However, Jeff, I do not remember anyone explaining that there are, or used to be anyway, two types of ATF. Pick up a quart and read the difference between the GM and Ford used ATF. The Ford ATF is BAD **** to use in any engine. If this is the cause of many people breaking bad on it then they didn't listen to the one who suggested it in the first place.

Remember, I have already said in a previous post that I have not used it in a rotary, only in piston motors, but then again I have never found a use for it in a rotary. I suppose that if I had a problem that would require some of the stuff you guys use in yours then I might use ATF. However I have not had any of those problems as of yet.

I also have never torn down a rotary or even seen the inside of one, but I have built many boingers. I fail to see what it is inside a rotary that would be any different than rings and bearings. Is the Apex seal made of some different material? What am I missing here?

I am not writing this to blast anyone for their use, or non use of the stuff. I am writing it to explain that , first off there is a type of ATF that is BAD for ANY motor, and sencond to try and understand the different characteristics that go into a rotary.

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

Apex seal is iron. Or carbon or Ceramic if you have the $$

ATF Cleaned out my junkyard motor REAL well. I was impressed with it.

coldy13

Can anyone here tell me why you insist on using ATF instead of MMO? MMO is much better. It breakes up carbon just the same, it is made to burn so it won't **** up your cat converters, and it won't foul your plugs(or at least not nearly as bad). I just don't get why anyone uses ATF for this kind of **** when MMO is much better.

Brianhsval

Well coldy, I as for my use of it you can read what I posted earlier it explains my perspective.

I am old and seet in my ways!

As for fouling plugs.....never had a plug fouled by ATF. But then as I have stated throughout I have never used it in a rotary. Can't see why it would though, it burns hot so I can't get that.

Another use for ATF: In a diesel when changing your fuel filter you always add ATF to clean the injectors. I also added 2 quarts per 150 gal of diesel to keep my fuel from freezing in the winter. There was other stuff out there to keep fuel from freezing, but I ran the ATF for 20 years and while others were broke down due to fuel freezing I never froze up. As for the injectors in my 425 CAT, I never had a problem from the ATF. As a matter of fact I knew very few mechanics who didn't recomend it.

Of course this has NOTHING to do with the rotary application, but then again the original question did't apply to just the rotary.

REVHED

There are oil control o-rings on the sides of the rotors that are made of silicone. These have a hard enough time dealing with engine oil which is why there are aftermarket viton o-rings available.

mcnannay

i may be wrong, but i thought it was only the combustion seals that are made of viton, what are the oil control o-rings made of??

and transmission oil cooler lines are a different type of hose, a lot stronger and thicker...i know cause i guess you can call me a "parts jockey" haha

i say mmo, but i have also heard some bad things about mmo in the oil causing excessive smoking in a rotary, don't remember where i read it...but i did notice increased oil consumption when i started using a bit of mmo in my oil...hmmmm