7aull

iTrader: (2)

Rotorheads-
Today began - and maybe ended - the resurrection on 1 of my 80 SAs 12a. Stored for 3 years with coolant drained (you'll see why this fact is important, please read on), engine internally lubed and sealed, fuel system drained; "Ran When Parked" as they say-
So I filled the rad with tap water (to rinse prior to adding distilled/coolant mix), noticed oil oozing from under the oil filler cap. Pulled the cap off - OIL FILLED TO THE TOP OF THE TUBE!

Of course I knew it was filled because the water was displacing the oil in the sump, meaning some sort of catastrophic seal failure. ook. Confirmed when I pulled the block water jacket plug, which dumped out a oil/water mix. Immediately drained oil pan, with same results: water and oil.

So. Can I assume there is no argument that I have a seal failure and a rebuild is the only solution?? (hey, argue if you have an idea!!!!).

Here is what I am thinking:
-until I added the water, the internals of the engine, all properly oiled up, etc. - where fine. Nothing seized. Water has NOT been sitting in the combustion chambers, etc. corroding the guts for 3 years-
-engine was NOT turned over with water inside - so oil pump would not have pumped water into rotors, eccentric shaft, etc. etc. etc. - these should all be correctly oiled up.
-this engine was rebuilt by Aitkins Rotary in Seattle some 15,000 mi /7yrs ago, so things like rotor oil and apex seals, springs, etc should be OK - I really babied this engine, 3K oil changes, etc.

SO: might I get away with just having it pulled apart, replace all the seals and gaskets and reassemble it? ie No new apex, oil rings seals on rotors, etc. needed, just the basic O-ring tension bolt seals, water seals, etc.? I was planning on selling the car, which is a very nice solid SA, but essentially scrap with out a running motor. If I can get it running reliably for the next owner and NOT lose my shirt in the process, I'd really like to save this car! Obviously I will talk to Aitkins about this, but would appreciate the input of you folks too.

Stu Aull
80GS (s)
Alaska

1BADSP

iTrader: (4)

you have a cracked center plate,it's not the seals.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

You might only need a gasket set, and get lucky and have it work out in the end. However I am not sure why the oil and water would join so freely. Very strange.

Rogue_Wulff

Perhaps it froze? I know you said it was drained, but was the old mixture strong enough for the winters there?
If water entered the oil system so quickly and freely, I'd almost bet on either a bad iron or rotor housing. With no coolant, it had no rust/corrosion preventative in the cooling system.

7aull

iTrader: (2)

Sorry guys, I am not making myself very clear here -
the engine had NO COOLANT in it at all - ie WATER JACKET WAS EMPTY. Can't see how it would crack a housing with nothing to form ice to burst anything? And the car was running great when put into storage. Trying to imagine what could crack a housing just sitting there empty...

-and yes, Jeff, it was a surprise to me too (the mixing of the two fluids) - and it was QUICK too, took just a few minutes, so its a big leak, whatever it is!

-See you point Wulff, but with the engine absolutely dry of water, there really isn't anything to cause corrosion is there? I am pretty sure I drained it thoroughly so no water was left behind.

Thoughts appreciated!
Stu Aull
Alaska

mazdaverx713b

iTrader: (91)

i would think that if a seal were bad that it would take a little bit of pressure to fill the sump with water....then again, maybe not. but the way i'm reading is that after you filled the radiator with tap water, you noticed the oozing. ok well not a ton of water will really get into the engine until the t-stat opens after the engine is up to normal operating temperature. also if you pulled the water jacket plug, why would oil be in there before the engine has had a chance to run? i know some of the water is going to get into the engine through the lower hose but how much do you think it would take to displace 4qts of oil and shove it into the cooalnt passages in the housings? i would say a good amount couple with a slight amount of pressure. if it were me and thinking the worst here, i would drain the oil and coolant. fill the coolant first. check the dipstick for traces of pooling water in the oil pan. if none, add oil and gas (prob have to clean the plugs) and try to start the engine. thats just what i would personally do.

RXDad

iTrader: (2)

How did you make sure that the block was completely drained of waterwhen you stored it? It is very hard to drain every drop unless you split the keg stack. What was in the car prior to draining, antifreeze or plain water.

I would vote for freezing damage or severe corrosion. Rotor housings have a way to corrode around the exhaust port and leak.

If the engine truly had no water in the combustion chamber, it is rebuildable. Side housings are easy to find, Rotor housings more difficult.

How many miles on the engine? If the engine had relatively low miles, you can do a soft seal rebuild only.

RXDad

7aull

iTrader: (2)

Thanks all for ideas and thoughts!
Talked to Atkins today and - with a tip-o-the-hat to Pportnosgsl - they also think I have burst the center housing ;p
Apparently the engine coolant drain plug (also at center housing) will NOT completely drain the block, leaving some sitting in an enlarged water galley below the spark plugs in the center housing. And unfortunately, it was PURE water, not mixed coolant (I'd flushed the engine before storage) - so once frozen, it can easily burst thru a thin spot in the center housing "floor" exposing the oil pan.
Hope someone besides me can learn from this.
Atkins will sell me a used/resurfaced center housing for $100 (plus Gawd-knows-what for Alaska shipping). I have bought their Rebuild DVD and an rotary engine stand adapter plate, so I will dive into the Unknown Waters of my own rebuild. Atkins seems to think - as some here have suggested - I might get away with a seals-only rebuild, tho they recommend the 90-93 new-style corner seals, which I'll likely go for.

So: be prepared for Noobie Rebuilder questions as this progresses Folks!!
Thanks again
Stu Aull
80GS(s)
Alaska

84stock

iTrader: (5)

Might as well learn to port while you're in there. See if Atkins will sell ya a streetport template. Dan is a good guy to deal with. And for what little they cost, get a set of Apex seals from Atkins as well as the gasket set.

Kentetsu

You know, if this were me, I'd try filling the radiator again to make sure the water is running into the oilpan. Just to be sure, before I tore it apart. You never know, right?

MazdaMike02

iTrader: (4)

Porting is very easy, you should do it. Anyway, that sucks..about your centre plate. Next time make sure everythings out lol.

7aull

iTrader: (2)

There won't be a "next time"
Coolant will ALWAYS be in my rotor motors unless they are sitting on a wood platform in my shop!

Porting!?? You guys are KILLING me! I am working up the nerve just to wrench the engine apart - OK, its the _assembly_ I need the nerve for! ;D

Will have a look at new apex seals too, but its only about 15K mi on the motor - and I was planning to SELL it before all this occured. Just have to jack the price a little now, but trying to keep it to a responsible minimum. Want to be able to sell it knowing its going to run well and reliably.

Kentetsu, I hear you, but after draining a gallon of fresh water out of the oil pan already, I am sold on the idea I've blown out the center housing ;p

Will post a pic of what I find once I get it out and apart.
Again, my thanks for keen observations and suggestions. Stay tuned for dumb rebuild Qs- !
Stu Aull
80GS(s)
Alaska

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Right. It is possible to pour the green stuff where the honey should go. Just not very often (one would hope).

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

out of curiousity, would you not be able to get that just welded? I know cast iron can be a pain, but its do able, and its not really in an area that needs much strength. Just weighing out your options here

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

theres also a freeze plug under the front cover, it'll give the same symptoms, although i wouldnt think it would fail suddenly like that

dont worry about porting, if you're not comfortable with it, dont do it. stock port is better than "crappy hogged out hole" anyways

swbtm

iTrader: (2)

stu don't worry about a rebuild, I just dove into a project of my own (check my sig link) and it's turned out to be way more than expected. But, it is fun and i'm learning. As long as you're enjoying yourself at the end of the day, then you're way ahead. You also have lots of good support from the good people on this forum.

Good luck!

7aull

iTrader: (2)

Luck, with Forum support is the combo I'll need! All will be revealed when I open her up.
Thanks
Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska

Rogue_Wulff

Guess I called that one. Granted, water freezing will *usually* creep into higher ground when it has the room to do so.
Good luck with build. They aren't difficult to do, just time consuming during the cleaning stage. With this low mileage, it shouldn't need much cleaning beyond the seal locations. After that, it's just a matter of taking the time to insure every piece goes in as it's sposed to.

7aull

iTrader: (2)

Looks like you were Dead-On R.F. !! - I bow to the Wisdom of my peers
Yanking and rebuilding is an experience I could do without, but *ahem* - "I will rise to the challenge" - esp since you guys will have my back....
besides, its basically either that or write the whole car off - not many takers for Dead RX7's in Alaska, let alone parts thereof. Now, if it was an F150....
Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska

Torque South

Good luck man.

Crit

iTrader: (6)

Stu, is the engine still in the car? I'd want to take the engine loose at the engine mounts, lift the nose of it with a jack, and try to drop the oil pan. You can at least get a good look at the bottom of all the castings before committing to removal of the engine. If you don't see anything, you can move the jack to the underside of the engine, keep the nose off the mounts, remove the radiator, fan and water pump, and check the freeze plug in the front cover.

7aull

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Crit - worth considering - was not aware of a freeze plug! Is it behind the engine mount? Is it EXTERNAL? ie if it popped, then the coolant would empty OUT of the motor, not IN to it like my 12a did. Otherwise, what would be the point?? And why didn't the litt;e Bastid pop like it was _supposed_ to?? ;P
Stu Aull
80GS (s)
Alaska

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

theres a freeze plug by the oil pump, INSIDE the front cover.

now that its been mentioned, the oil pan is easy to pull...

7aull

iTrader: (2)

So the freeze plug is REPLACEABLE then?? This sounds almost TOO easy!
details, please...
Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska

DOMINION

Most freeze plugs are replaceable