need info on installing S5 engine in a SA
10-04-05, 04:48 PM
#1
need info on installing S5 engine in a SA
has anyone installed an S5 n/a engine in a first gen? i would like to install a ported(not sure which port yet) S5 engine in my SA. i would like to keep it fuel injected but i think thatd be waay too much trouble. what would it take to keep it fuel injected? if i cant use fuel injection id like to run a side draft carb of some sort. any advise anyone has would be greatly appreciated. thanks
10-04-05, 05:22 PM
#2
See the archives and search
There is tons of information on various FC engine swaps, and all of them should give you something, even if it isn't specific to an N/A S5 engine. There are lots of threads on TII swaps, which are basically the same with just the added complexity of the turbo.
Carb is always easier than FI. FI swaps are easiest in GSL-SEs because they have most of the wiring provisions, you just have to do a bunch of soldering to hook the wires to the right spot on the connector.
S5 N/A with FI into a carbed 12a car is the tough one. The engine itself goes in relatively easily (front cover and engine mount), but you have to be creative to get the wiring done for the comptuer.
Jon
There is tons of information on various FC engine swaps, and all of them should give you something, even if it isn't specific to an N/A S5 engine. There are lots of threads on TII swaps, which are basically the same with just the added complexity of the turbo.
Carb is always easier than FI. FI swaps are easiest in GSL-SEs because they have most of the wiring provisions, you just have to do a bunch of soldering to hook the wires to the right spot on the connector.
S5 N/A with FI into a carbed 12a car is the tough one. The engine itself goes in relatively easily (front cover and engine mount), but you have to be creative to get the wiring done for the comptuer.
Jon
10-04-05, 11:24 PM
#4
FB+FC=F-ME
S5 N/A is a great engine.Really zingy and responsive.
The wiring is not that hard,really its not.90% of it is plug and play between the engine and ECU.Fuel injection is almost aways prefferable to carbs,so its worth the work to retain the factory injection.
The mounting issue will be the primary problem since the S5 uses an electronic OMP that cant just bolt up to a GSL-SE front cover like when doing an S4 swap.You do have options though.....Do a search,its been covered recently and quite often.
The S5 N/A and S5 TII swaps are 99% identical in the work required.I did my S5 TII swap years ago and it was a cakewalk,especially if your already familiar with rotaries and EFI.
If this is your first rotary engine swap or first venture into EFI,....GET A FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL!!!!
It is an infinitely useful piece of information and has ALL the info youll need for wiring and fuel delivery setup.
The wiring is not that hard,really its not.90% of it is plug and play between the engine and ECU.Fuel injection is almost aways prefferable to carbs,so its worth the work to retain the factory injection.
The mounting issue will be the primary problem since the S5 uses an electronic OMP that cant just bolt up to a GSL-SE front cover like when doing an S4 swap.You do have options though.....Do a search,its been covered recently and quite often.
The S5 N/A and S5 TII swaps are 99% identical in the work required.I did my S5 TII swap years ago and it was a cakewalk,especially if your already familiar with rotaries and EFI.
If this is your first rotary engine swap or first venture into EFI,....GET A FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL!!!!
It is an infinitely useful piece of information and has ALL the info youll need for wiring and fuel delivery setup.
10-05-05, 07:15 AM
#5
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To deal with the OMP on my S5 to '85 GS swap, I retained the 12A cover and used the 12A OMP. Then I did this for the OMP lines:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=omp+lines
I ran the 2 lines to the oil injectors mounted in the housings since I'm putting on a supercharger.
Had to buy a different oil pan and front motor mount...I think I got them from MazdaTrix.
Rich
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=omp+lines
I ran the 2 lines to the oil injectors mounted in the housings since I'm putting on a supercharger.
Had to buy a different oil pan and front motor mount...I think I got them from MazdaTrix.
Rich
10-05-05, 03:41 PM
#6
i think ill get a hold of a S5 service manual along with an SA service manual. i know it would probably be easier to do this in an SE, but ill be using an SA. ill have to reasearch a lot before i decide if ill use the FI or go side draft. id prefer the FI, but im not sure if ill be able to install it. this will be my first engine swap along with my first time messing with FI. luckily my dad is a mechanic and he should be able to help me out a lot. it will be some time before i do the swap, i have to get the engine and get it ported and all(still havent decided what port job i want either). just so im clear, my main concerns will be the front cover and OMP and the wiring, right? i cant decide what tranny to run, i was thinking T2 but is there another option thatd have better gears? i dont think the 12a would hold up, am i wrong? i think i can get the OMP porblem taken care of pretty easily, its the wiring thats scaring me away from running FI. whats the best source for the service manuals? mazda dealership?
10-05-05, 04:13 PM
#7
From a physical installation standpoint it is fairly easy. You will need the 1st gen front cover and engine mount. I have a GSL-SE so it was very easy to use the 13B engine mount that I already had. I am not sure of subframe differences though so you may need to find out if it was the same subframe for the 12A and 13B cars. If it is, all you need is the GSL-SE 13B engine mount bar. If not, you'll be fabbing somthing small up. That's really it when it comes to installation. As far as fuel goes you will have to determine what you want. You can do a Holley carb conversion fairly easily and have great results. I personally wouldn't use the stock Nikki carb but that's just personal preference as it has been done before. I like the benefits of fuel injection and ended up using a Megasquirt ecu. It was cheap and easy to install and runs great. I have a nice base map for one too so even that would be easy to supply to someone. You could also try to use the 2nd gen wiring harness and ecu if you wanted to. You've got alot of options. The first to overcome is getting the engine mounted in the car. Then you can work out how you want to control it.
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10-06-05, 12:35 AM
#8
FB+FC=F-ME
Mounting is easy,no matter what type of 1st gen you have.
GSL-SE oilpan
1st gen front cover.
GSL-SE front bar mount or slightly tweek your 12A bar mount.
GSL-SE right motormount.
For a trans,the TII is overkill for an N/A engine,although it is a very stout box.The S5 engine might have 160hp,but it still doesnt have that heavy torque delivery that the turbo engines have.Torque is what kills drivetrains.Id stick with a good condition 79-80 5 speed.The main reason is that you wont have to do anything with the shifter,which is unique to the 79-80 cars and would be damn tough to get around if you choose to run a TII or FC trans.Plus you will save money not having to fab up a custom driveline.
13B 6-port engines dont benefit much from porting since they already have a lot of intake port volume from the factory.Its just staged to prevent bad idle,powerband spikes and the other stuff normally associated with heavy porting.The S5 VDI intake and aux. port actuators make for a broad,usable powerband,even with stock porting.Id stick with stock or mild intake porting and work on opening up the baffled N/A exhaust ports.Maybe slap in some free'er flowing TII rotor housings.That can be easier than grinding out those damn exhaust port splitters.
For the wiring,trust me,if you can read a wiring diagram,the left side EFI harness is cake.You cant beat the factory EFI for flexibility and easy of running.No tuning required,no dyno time,no risk of tuning mistakes.And metered air injection takes to bolt on mods like a duck to water.Standalone gives you freedom from the stock rats nest and airflowmeter,but it requires you to create maps and tune from scratch.Plus,since most are speed-density EFI,they wont know if you add some headers or change you intake or some other moderate mod,unless you re-tune.Metered air EFI can do this on the fly,on it's own....
Theres one single page in the FSM that gives you EVERYTHING you need to take care of the wiring.Every wire from the battery to the ECU is covered.It may look overwhelming at first,but remember,you only need to make the #1 plug harness.All the terminals starting with a 2 or 3 are plug and play on the other harness.The "1" harness consists of about 20 wires,but only about 10-12 of them are neccesary to make the engine run fine and not throw up any codes.
Heres a copy of it from the TeamFC3S site.
Page F1-8................
http://www.teamfc3s.org/main/factory..._non_turbo.pdf
GSL-SE oilpan
1st gen front cover.
GSL-SE front bar mount or slightly tweek your 12A bar mount.
GSL-SE right motormount.
For a trans,the TII is overkill for an N/A engine,although it is a very stout box.The S5 engine might have 160hp,but it still doesnt have that heavy torque delivery that the turbo engines have.Torque is what kills drivetrains.Id stick with a good condition 79-80 5 speed.The main reason is that you wont have to do anything with the shifter,which is unique to the 79-80 cars and would be damn tough to get around if you choose to run a TII or FC trans.Plus you will save money not having to fab up a custom driveline.
13B 6-port engines dont benefit much from porting since they already have a lot of intake port volume from the factory.Its just staged to prevent bad idle,powerband spikes and the other stuff normally associated with heavy porting.The S5 VDI intake and aux. port actuators make for a broad,usable powerband,even with stock porting.Id stick with stock or mild intake porting and work on opening up the baffled N/A exhaust ports.Maybe slap in some free'er flowing TII rotor housings.That can be easier than grinding out those damn exhaust port splitters.
For the wiring,trust me,if you can read a wiring diagram,the left side EFI harness is cake.You cant beat the factory EFI for flexibility and easy of running.No tuning required,no dyno time,no risk of tuning mistakes.And metered air injection takes to bolt on mods like a duck to water.Standalone gives you freedom from the stock rats nest and airflowmeter,but it requires you to create maps and tune from scratch.Plus,since most are speed-density EFI,they wont know if you add some headers or change you intake or some other moderate mod,unless you re-tune.Metered air EFI can do this on the fly,on it's own....
Theres one single page in the FSM that gives you EVERYTHING you need to take care of the wiring.Every wire from the battery to the ECU is covered.It may look overwhelming at first,but remember,you only need to make the #1 plug harness.All the terminals starting with a 2 or 3 are plug and play on the other harness.The "1" harness consists of about 20 wires,but only about 10-12 of them are neccesary to make the engine run fine and not throw up any codes.
Heres a copy of it from the TeamFC3S site.
Page F1-8................
http://www.teamfc3s.org/main/factory..._non_turbo.pdf
Last edited by steve84GS TII; 10-06-05 at 12:42 AM.
10-06-05, 04:22 PM
#9
man im getting way more help than i expected. thanks guys.
the SA already has a 13b in it(76 with 2000 miles on mazda rebuild)
steve- i understand what youre saying about the housing..would i be better off using the S5 rotors in another housing, maybe S4 or in the existing engine? thanks so much for all your advice and for giving me that link. i might actually be able to pull this off!
the SA already has a 13b in it(76 with 2000 miles on mazda rebuild)
steve- i understand what youre saying about the housing..would i be better off using the S5 rotors in another housing, maybe S4 or in the existing engine? thanks so much for all your advice and for giving me that link. i might actually be able to pull this off!
10-06-05, 06:53 PM
#10
FB+FC=F-ME
Id stick with the S5 N/A rotors since they are light and high compression.
Then slap in some TII rotor housings to make exhaust porting easy.S4 or S5,it doesnt matter,their the same.
Then slap in some TII rotor housings to make exhaust porting easy.S4 or S5,it doesnt matter,their the same.
10-06-05, 10:39 PM
#11
hmm, i actually have a T2 housing i got for free from a guy when i bought a car. i dont know if its good or not. i took pics and posted it in the second gen section and one guy said it was ruined and one guy said they were usable. if i post the pics in here would you be able to tell? what section of the housing do i need to show you in the pics?
10-07-05, 12:30 AM
#12
FB+FC=F-ME
Usually the bottom gets the most carnage.
If its even questionable,Id hold out for a better,matching set from another motor.TII rotor housings in good shape arent hard to come by,especially with all the J-spec engines flooding into the U.S.
Its either that, or keep the N/A rotor housings and work the exhaust splitters out of the ports.They are some tough buggers,but they can be ground out with the right tools.
If its even questionable,Id hold out for a better,matching set from another motor.TII rotor housings in good shape arent hard to come by,especially with all the J-spec engines flooding into the U.S.
Its either that, or keep the N/A rotor housings and work the exhaust splitters out of the ports.They are some tough buggers,but they can be ground out with the right tools.
10-07-05, 03:47 PM
#13
well i wouldnt be doing the porting, i dont want to risk me messing it up, and i definately would be very afraid to try to rebuild the engine. i want to get a crapped one to practice on first. i think ill go with the T2 housing to make the job easier on the builder. so ill be needing:
t2 housing
S5 n/a rotors
S5 n/a counter weight
any 13b essentric shaft
will any 13b stationary gears work? i have some that i think are from a t2 also, but they have surface rust so i dont think id use them
12a front cover
what about the middle and rear plates? correct me on anything i have wrong also. thanks
t2 housing
S5 n/a rotors
S5 n/a counter weight
any 13b essentric shaft
will any 13b stationary gears work? i have some that i think are from a t2 also, but they have surface rust so i dont think id use them
12a front cover
what about the middle and rear plates? correct me on anything i have wrong also. thanks
10-07-05, 05:22 PM
#14
FB+FC=F-ME
If you wanna keep the aux. ports working along with the N/A VDI manifold,youll need to retain the N/A iron housings with the 6 intake ports.TII rotor housings will bolt up with no issues.Keep the S5 N/A rotating assembely together to insure proper balance(rotors,E-shaft,front and rear weights/flywheel)
Stationary gears are all the same for 13B's up to 92.Stockers will be fine for a N/A engine up to 8000rpms,which is the stock S5 N/A redline.
Stationary gears are all the same for 13B's up to 92.Stockers will be fine for a N/A engine up to 8000rpms,which is the stock S5 N/A redline.
10-08-05, 12:40 PM
#15
well, would it be better to run the n/a or t2 housings? i think itd be easier to just get a n/a engine and take it to get built, but if itll be more trouble to port the exhaust holes or anything i dont want to do it. would there be a power difference between the housings? if so, i wouldnt think itd be too much.
10-09-05, 11:39 PM
#16
FB+FC=F-ME
It depends on what your final goals are.If you plan on doing any intake porting,your gonna want,or more likely,NEED to port the exhaust to get power.
The splitters in the N/A rotor housings exhaust ports are damn tough.The cost for a set of decent used TII rotor housings could be less than the labor to get those splitters out and get the N/A exhaust's ported.Youll have to shop around and also ask the builder you choose about it,see what their rates/policies are.
The TII and N/A rotor housings are pretty much the same once the splitters are out,you just have to decide which is the better/cheaper route to take.
The splitters in the N/A rotor housings exhaust ports are damn tough.The cost for a set of decent used TII rotor housings could be less than the labor to get those splitters out and get the N/A exhaust's ported.Youll have to shop around and also ask the builder you choose about it,see what their rates/policies are.
The TII and N/A rotor housings are pretty much the same once the splitters are out,you just have to decide which is the better/cheaper route to take.
10-10-05, 03:37 PM
#17
ive been thinking abut this a lot. i dont want to spare any expense so i think i want to get ceramic coated rotors and housings. ill have to reasearch them more cause i dont think youd be able to port a housing after its been coated.
since the n/a and t2 are the same i think itd be easier just to get the t2 so the builder wouldnt have to deal with the splitters.
the only shop available to me would be one in gainesville called Autotronix. the builder seems like a good guy and to be knowledgable. he owns a MG with a 13b running 11's(seen with my own eyes), an old school corrola thats also 13b powered that he guarentees will hit the 10s(kinda skeptical about that one though). if i didnt get him to build it then id have to order it from pineapple racing or some other shop.
with going with a shop like pineapple id have to send them the ceramic coated parts and i think that way would be much more expensive, but if thats what it takes, ill do it.
i just want to get all the info i can before i start spending money. ive seen lots of people have cars with great amounts of potential and spend lots of money on them, but theyre not as fast as they should be cause they spent the money on the wrong things.
since the n/a and t2 are the same i think itd be easier just to get the t2 so the builder wouldnt have to deal with the splitters.
the only shop available to me would be one in gainesville called Autotronix. the builder seems like a good guy and to be knowledgable. he owns a MG with a 13b running 11's(seen with my own eyes), an old school corrola thats also 13b powered that he guarentees will hit the 10s(kinda skeptical about that one though). if i didnt get him to build it then id have to order it from pineapple racing or some other shop.
with going with a shop like pineapple id have to send them the ceramic coated parts and i think that way would be much more expensive, but if thats what it takes, ill do it.
i just want to get all the info i can before i start spending money. ive seen lots of people have cars with great amounts of potential and spend lots of money on them, but theyre not as fast as they should be cause they spent the money on the wrong things.
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