clean85owner

Snow? What's that? My only encounter with snow; I was like 3. I don't remember it so it basically never happened. I really don't want to encounter snow. It's cold, slippery, and probably a pain to drive on. So, I think I'll stay in my sub-tropical climate where it's sunny and 90 degress with 100% humidity one day and pooring down rain the next. LAter

peejay

It were an '88 GL wagon, with the wide-ratio dual range 2wd/4wd tranny.

I saved the I/P, flywheel, clutch, pedal assembly, transmission, speedo cable, center console, shifter arrangement, driveshaft, and entire rear drivetrain/suspension/subframe. 4wd Subarus are really hard to find but automatic 2wd models are plentiful, so I saved everything needed to convert a 2wd auto model. Which, conveniently, I had also bought a '89 GL sedan for my parents to replace the '87 GL sedan that I'd previously bought for them... Sadly both cars died and I was unable to retrieve them.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Snow rules, black ice isn't bad, it makes things interesting

clean85owner

What exactly is "black ice"?

jutny

umm, ice that you cant see, and is VERY VERY slippery.

dangerous ****.

peejay

yeah, you can't see it because it's completely clear and smooth.

this is why if the road is wet you always drive on the snowy part of the road instead of the "clear" part. snow gives more traction than glare ice does, and a wet road and an iced over road look an AWFUL lot alike!

82transam

iTrader: (18)

I still say it makes things interesting

Narcisse91

I put snow tires on my Subie last night, finally, because I've got a road rally this weekend and a rally cross (in the snow) the following weekend. I had been having a hard time getting 300 lbs of torque to the ground...

rotor vs. piston

What model suby do you have?

Narcisse91

It's a WRX that's been tuned for a bit more power and much better handling for racing in dirt.

That was my project car for the last year and a half, but now the money is going to go towards building my RX-7 into something I can bring to Watkin's Glen for a day and whoop some ***. The RX-7 will never touch the WRX in speed (WRX does 0-60mph in 4.3 seconds) but I'm hoping to get it close, and make it handle 100x better than the 3000 lbs Subaru.

peejay

I doubt you'll get the RX-7 to handle as well.

Subarus have two advantages - AWD and a pretty good front weight bias. Okay, right now you're thinking "Huh??? Aren't you always championing a rear weight bias?" And I am, for RWD cars. But AWD's are great with a front bias.

The normal handling trait for AWD is to plow like a pig. So the normal driving technique for AWD to get around that is to brake really deep and fling the car into the corner, rotate the tail around, set the chassis with the throttle, and come out of the corner looking like Walter Rohrl. If the CG is nearer the front of the car, the back of the car has less inertia and you can rudder it around easier. Imagine swinging a hammer holding onto the head end and you'll see what I'm talking about. Anyway, the AWD and weight bias combine to give you godlike control over the car's attitude, giving the driver lots of confidence to drive the car at 9/10ths and higher.

Did I ever mention that I really like Subarus?

- PJ (Graduate of the "Steer with the Throttle, Not the Steering Wheel" School of Driving)

Narcisse91

And Subarus do even more to assist with the center of gravity by using a boxer engine, but...

With equal weight and equavalent suspension, I would agree. To begin with suspension, I race the WRX in the dirt. The car sits high and the suspension is loose. I have it set up now to be VERY neutral, which makes throttle-steer very controllable, but it's still got body roll. To make it handle better (on pavement), I'll need to either sacrifice the dirt driving (which will never happen) or spend 4x what the RX-7 cost on a full rally suspension. If you put sticky tires on a car with a loose suspension, you pick up a bit, but you end up increasing body roll, which ruins the ride quality (even if it handles a little bit better). Add to that, my WRX weighs over 3000 lbs. It'll always handle like a 3000 lbs car, especially with the suspension setup the way it is. That means the car will lurch forward when I brake and squat back when I accelerate, and it will swing side to side when I corner. The RX-7 weighs a lot less, sits on the ground, and since I don't plan to take it off-road (often), it can have a much stiffer suspension and much stickier tires.

You can make an AWD car handle better than anything else on the road (the Japanese EVO is a perfect example of that), and throttle-steer and tossability is important in having fun, but without spending a fortune, you can't have a car tuned for off-road AND on-road.

Otherwise, I would just put more money into the WRX instead of building another car. Hell, I'm about 2 grand shy of doing 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. But I really need to scratch my road-racing itch, so I'm building a car I can take to the tracks this year.

peejay

I had my Suby set up with stock 4wd suspension. I altered the handling by removing the front stabilizer bar, giving the nose more traction/less roll stiffness, and lowering the front by about 1.5" with clamp-a-coils, which gave me less positive camber (more front grip) and a lower front roll center (even more front grip/less front roll stiffness).

I had been told that my car had VW-like postures in some corners. Front-heavy cars don't need the inside rear wheel contacting the ground, anyway...

Did it lean a lot? Yep. But it handled absolutely beautifully, inspiring nothing but confidence. Body lean doesn't matter to me one bit. I'm too busy looking where I'm going to pay any attention to how unfashionably nautical the car looks.

Note that handling has absolutely *nothing* to do with the amount of grip the car has. Grip helps the car have excellent cornering speed. Handling helps the *driver* have excellent cornering speed. Big difference.

I never said that other cars couldn't be faster on a roadcourse, just so you understand. I just said that nothing could *handle* better.

Narcisse91

Grip directly affects handling, though, because if the car doesn't have traction to keep up with the driver's input, it won't handle well at all. A car leaning might not affect it on a skidpad, but throw it into a slalom. Physics takes over, and regardless of drivetrain, the lighter, more neutral car with less body roll will win every time.

True, an AWD (NOT 4WD) car can definitely handle better than the exact same setup in a RWD car, but to quote you "I doubt you'll get the RX-7 to handle as well. " and I can guarantee you, without a doubt in the world, that I can make the RX-7 handle better (on pavement) than my WRX, simply because my WRX is not setup for it.

You also said "But AWD's are great with a front bias." and I'm not sure if you're talking about weight or drive. The WRX is rear biased drive (there is a ratio converter of 1.1:1 to the rear), which will handle even better than front bias. If you're talking about weight, I agree.

peejay

Weight bias, not drive. I've been known to be clear as mud sometimes, sorry.

Too true that grip can affect handling... but I'd rather drive a car with great handling and poor grip, than great grip and poor handling, any day of the week! I've had both and I'll let you guess as to which was the only car I've ever spun off the road...

JEC-31

Anyway, if you Suby hi-hjackers don't mind, back to the original posted topic: bad drivers in snow.

Tires, tires tires!

The difference between good and marginal tires on snow is like the difference on pavement between gummy race tires or 4 spare donuts.

Don't get me wrong, driving skill still matters because if you've got bad tires AND BRAINS then you go slow and stay out of trouble. I'm doing that today, as a matter of fact. Just poking along like a little old grandma in my wife's old Accord on it's worn Michelins. I know the car and it's tendencies inside and out, and I'm staying well below it's limits just in case this topic happens to me: some moron coming at me in my lane.

But a bad driver can cause death and destruction even on dedicated snow tires. It's sad when the Darwin nominees take out innocents, too.

About black ice: it's usually from a light dusting of snow getting blow across the road during the day, where it melts on the pavement from sunlight and passing cars. Once the sun goes down, the temperature plummets and the wet road gets a thin smooth coating of ice. Sometimes it's in patches here and there, sometimes for miles. So your headlights show you a black ashphalt road that appears oddly shiny - and then any slight input of braking, steering, or accelerating will start your long slide or spin into the ditch or oncomming traffic. The only tires that'll help you are spiked ice-racing tires.
I once inched down a 3/4 mile long stretch of flat country road, just holding the wheel absolutely still and foot off the gas, at idle, past about 9 or 10 cars and trucks (including a tow truck!) in the snowfields on either side.
Black ice kills lots of people (good bad, and mediocre drivers) every year.

peejay

Don't forget the diff. For best results use an open diff! That way if one tire has poor traction, only it spins, the other tires doesn't and keeps the rear in line. With a limited-slip, if one tire has poor traction, both tires spin, and your *** end is gonna be all over the place.