hyouriittai

Hey folks. I'm obviously new here to this forum. I'm also new to working on cars in general, and on rotaries in specific. I came across, what seems to be, a reasonable deal on an 84 GSL-SE. The thing definitely needs a new clutch release / slave cylinder. But when I went to check it out, the engine would (turn over?), but not start. Like, it wanted to, and the guy was spraying, I think, starter fluid into the intake, but it just wouldn't go.

The guy said that it may, apparently, need a new fuel pump. I am wondering if anyone can give any insight on this. Obviously, there's no substitute for actually inspecting the car yourselves, but maybe some of your prior experiences will lend themselves to my situation. Think this is the actual problem (fuel pump)? What kind of money am I looking at for these parts (fuel pump, slave cylinder)?

The car would end up a project, so I may be considering turboing the 13b. If that's the case, and I do need to replace the fuel pump, should I look for a high PSI pump in anticipation for a turbo set up, or is that too premature / incompatible with the stock engine set up?

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

hanman

To check and see if the pump is working, you can run a jumper wire across the two pins of the initial set coupler, by the air cleaner. With the key on, you can lay down under the car on the drivers side and see/hear/feel the pump running.

If the pump is dead, you can get a Walbro 255 lph pump that is a direct drop in replacement for the stock pump. I just made this change. The only question is whether or not the Walbro will over power the stock regulator. If it does (I don't know yet, i haven't driven the car much, but so far so good) you will have to install a aftermarket adjustable regulator, like the aeromotive.

I think I paid around $150 for the pump. www.fuelpumps.net I think. I don't trust ebay, but they are on there a lot, for cheaper.

On a side note. If the pump is bad, you should be able to spray some starting fluid in the intake plenum and it should start for a second, then die.

hyouriittai

Hanman: thanks for the reply. Regarding the starting-fluid-through-intake-plenum method, that's kind of what happened. Although, I wasn't sure if it died because I let off the ignition once I heard the engine firing, or if it was due to the fuel pump. But what you're saying seems to make sense - and the guy said that, when they first got the vehicle, they could get it to run for a while by hitting it with the starting fluid.

I'm wondering if maybe the engine is flooded too, since it's been presumably started and killed several times. What do you guys think?

Again, thanks for the heads up.

wAnKeLsReVeNgE

This is a major project. If you've never worked on rotaries before skip it--unless you don't mind spending a lot of time going over the whole works. . If its flooded then the pump can't be bad, can it? If it is flooded, you should know how to unflood it. If you tried starting it with the hose from the air cleaner to throttle body disconnected it will never start. The slave and clutch cyl are bad because the car has been sitting for awhile. The fuel pump is the least of your problems. How many miles on this engine? You put a turbo on a tired engine you'll blow it up.

hyouriittai

Wankelsrevenge: Thanks for the forewarning, but I'm not really looking for a "quick fix" go-fast car. I have a daily driver already, so I am prepared to have this vehicle out of commission for some time, as I learn more about working on rotaries while rebuilding the engine. But I definitely understand your concern, and I appreciate the feed back.

With that said, I am pretty much determined to put whatever time and money it takes -- in moderation -- into whatever project I take on. Always found rotary technology intriguing, so I thought this would be something fun and rewarding to work on.

Turbo was just one consideration, but I do understand that there will have to be a rebuild done to the engine at its age in order to have a safe set-up. The engine has 164k on it, I believe.

Now, I did mention the possibility of flooding, but as I have said, I have no experience with rotaries. So, what I mentioned about flooding was just an uneducated speculation based on what I have read. Can anyone tell me whether or not this car's symptoms, described in the first and third posts, are indicative of a flooded engine? Like I mentioned in my first post, there was a point when we were trying to start the engine while the guy was spraying some starting fluid into the intake plenum, the engine seemed to start or want to start, but died.

I'd greatly appreciate any info on how to determine whether the engine is flooded or not. Like I said, total newbie, but a very fast learner. I've found a couple of resources on how to prevent flooding, and I believe they have some references on how to unflood an engine, but if anyone has particularly useful suggestions or resources for this, that'd be great.

romelo1680

iTrader: (2)

pull spark plugs out look to see fit gas is on them

cjf

iTrader: (1)

I am having the same , exact problem...car floods and will not start.. Ipulled he plugs ,dried them of , put themback in and sameproblem...will not start and floods again..I amnot pumping the pedal either.. I am at a stand still on what to do.

I have 3 rx7's and each one is not running for unknown reasons..I never had this bad of a problem before.. I hope to have a rx7 buddy on this forum to come down and help me... If I can get it to run, I will fill you in on what you want to try.

good luck with your car.....cjf

wAnKeLsReVeNgE

With 164K that engine will cost more to rebuild than a new one.
Go to Pineapple Racing and watch the rebuild vids. Gaskets, bearings and new seals, apex included, are about $2K to do an engine. And thats if your rotor housings, intermediates and rotors are reusable. If you need a rotor housing, which you will, they are $700 each. It goes from there.
Many people who found rotary technology intriguing ran out of patience, time and money to finish the car. I've been at this long enough to know. I've got five of these now, I kept one SE strictly for parts should I need them. I lost track of how many I bought for a couple hundred because someone gave up and wanted it gone.
Look at cjf's post here. He has three, and none of them are running and he doesn't know why.
Oh well, patience and money will keep you going for awhile. Have at it, I say.

hyouriittai

Thanks again, man. That's something I needed to hear. I may not go this route, for now, after all. Unfortunately all the RX7s around here, of varying generations, are all beat up by younger people, and I just thought that these ones I found for sale, which were in virtually stock condition, looked like good project platforms.

It's as you say, though. The money to get it running may not be what I want to dive into right away. Now, maybe if I could find a running vehicle in decent condition, I might go the rotary route. For now, I'll just keep my eyes open.

Thanks again for the input.

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

Lets dispense with the "Myth" that it is a "Rotary" and therefore difficult to work on or diagnose.

An engine is an engine!

The diagnosis is the same.
You need fuel, spark, and compression to get any engine running.

You need to test for spark and fuel first. Very simple to do.

The Se or all 84-85 models utilize the trailing ignitor (rectangular looking box attached on the side of the distributor) for the fuel pump circuit to be complete.

You have 2 ignitors on the distributor. The one that is closest to the radiator is for the leading side (side that makes all the power) and the one closest to the alternator for the trailing side. Pretty much for emission clean up.

First thing you want to do is attempt to start the engine and see if the tachometer starts to work as you are cranking the engine. If it does not move at all then more than likely the trailing ignitor is out and you will not get the fuel pump to come on either since the circuit goes through the ignitor.

To test for spark to the plugs you can either ground out the plugs or buy an inline spark tester, crank the engine and see if the leading and trailing sides are firing.

To test the fuel pump to see if it has power to it or just comes on you can do what the other member stated and jumper it at the proper connector located in the engine bay near the AFM.

This will tell you whether it comes on or not but not if it has the proper pressure or volume. Their are other tests to determine this.

A compression test can be done with a conventional tester. Here is the link for that procedure.
https://www.rx7club.com/1st-gen-archive-71/engine-compression-test-using-piston-engine-tester-597883/

One thing that rotaries are more sensitive to than our conventional piston engines is cranking compression.

You always must have a good charged battery when attempting to start a rotary engine. Without that and especially on a FI one it will flood usually.

The SE is prone to flooding due to leaky injectors over many miles. Also the AFM can fail over many years of service and cause the fuel pump to come on before cranking and also flood the engine if their is low cranking speed due to a old battery or low compression of the engine.

In my signature is a link to the Factory Service manuals. I recommend that you download your specific year and do some reading on the subject. Everything you need to test and diagnose is in those manuals.

We are here as a back up when you get stumped.
There are also many threads on the SE and how to de-flood a "Rotary" engine that can be found by searching with the appropriate terms such as "De-flooding", etc..

The only thing that you will not find anywhere listed except perhaps in one of my posts is that sometimes you have to tow the vehicle with the transmission is 3rd gear( as long as you have a manual in your model) and put some engine oil or MMO (marvel mystery oil) in the spark plug holes to get the compression back up on the engine.

I have had to do this several times on engines after I had tried all of the regular attempts to restart after the engine had flooded.

wAnKeLsReVeNgE

I'm sure these are excellent project platforms. For the person who knows how they work. You need to go in with eyes wide open. I've bought quite a few cars from youngsters, but none of them were in stock condition. Mostly the interiors get hacked for stereos or the funky painting of the trim. And of course it has to have rimz.
Then one day the accelerator pump goes, and as a result the youngster goes on boards like this, asks questions, gets 10 different ideas, does all 10 things thinking he'll get the problem fixed, and is left with a mess of mismatched parts (he buys the cheapest parts he can, not OEM) that are misadjusted. And now, it's really screwed up.
It doesn't run at all, or worse than before. Panic sets in.
He can't take it to the neighborhood mechanic, because the neighborhood mechanic has no idea how to fix it. Call a couple local shops and ask. Can they work on rotary engines?
Now what? The dealer? Ouch. That won't do.
So it's back on this board asking for help, while all his friends are tooling around in Supras, Subarus, VWs and Hondas. Now, if he has a second car that runs, it makes it a lot easier. The ReX can sit until he figures it out. Which most of the time is never.
Think about it. That car you looked at, if the seller had a clue, don't you think at least he would have it RUN for a prospective buyer? If I had a nickel for every time I heard "it's just flooded and needs a fuel pump" I'd buy some nice wheels.
Right around then I see the car sitting in the driveway. It's been there for a few weeks, hasn't moved. Maybe the landlord or parents say it has to go out of the driveway. Either way, I first check when the plates expired, then knock on the door, or see the ad, and always, always lowball.
You can learn about these cars, but it takes years, trial and error, reading lots of books.
They are fun, they can be reliable and good on gas too. Sporty, but by no means street wars terrors. Thats what the third gens are for.

Whizbang

side notes on the GSL-SE to remember.

The AFM for the GSL-SE is unique to the car. 86+ cars used 5v signals where as the 84-85 GSL-SE uses a 12v signal. So for what its worth you basically can't use any SAFC style method of fuel controller either.

The injectors are rather large as well at 680cc (~68lb/hr) and being that they are old and well used, there is a good chance one might be stuck open. Happened on one of my cars. You can send them out to a place such as "witchhunter" and they will revamp your injectors for about 15 a piece plus shipping costs.

As for being flooded, a real easy way to see how badly flooded a motor is, is to take out the leading plugs on both rotors. Disable the ignition and fuel delivery. (ive forgot to do this once, interesting fireballs result) If you can, have someone crank the car for about 10 seconds while you look at the spark plug holes. White-ish clouds of gasoline will come out if its flooded. If its REAL flooded large PLUMES of the gas vapor come rolling out of your engine bay.

hyouriittai

This GSL-SE was probably a similar case as you have described: got up there in miles, former owner didn't know how to fix it. So, now, it's sitting at a crushing yard. It's in cosmetically good shape, so the boss at the yard thought he could make a buck or two on it. Doesn't run, as I mentioned, and could have whatever number of problems under the hood. What I do know about it is the slave cylinder is out, and it won't start up (see prior posts for description.)

But with all that said and done, they are asking $750 for it.

Anyway, I do want to note that, as much as I can't wait to get tearing around in a project car, I understand that getting them to one's ideal condition is hard work. Whatever I jump into, be it an RX-7 or a more "conventional" piston-based platform, I want to learn about them, know my vehicle.

A buddy of mine and I are going to go in on a garage, where we can have plenty of room to stretch and work on his Nissan S30-chassis, and my eventual "whatever." So, I'm prepared to get into this for the long haul. Question is, what should I do about this opportunity?

If I go for this car, I'll have a place for it to sit, where I can tear the engine apart and get to know it better. Thing is, is this the right way to start out on a rotary? I'm not sure if finding one that runs, and driving it into the ground, -then- figuring things out, is gonna be too educational, unless I'm looking for a lesson in how not to throw money away.

Ultimately, yeah, the decisions up to me. But maybe a little feedback on my situation?

Whizbang

for 750, it would be coming home with me. GSLSE's are getting rare.

romelo1680

iTrader: (2)

rx7 doctor thank you. dont have any of these problem buy it was helpful to learn something new

hyouriittai

Hey, Doc. I totally missed your post, because I think it was abridged in my "update" email. Needless to say, I had to backtrack and give you due credit for your helpful notes.

I have started to shuffle through the FSM's, and will definitely get into some deeper reading. I guess the part I'm stumped about is: do I go ahead and grab the car, then do all this stuff afterwards? At $750, is such a chase worth it, or should I try and talk this guy down a bit? It was, after all, donated to a scrap yard - perhaps prematurely.

Rx-7Doctor

iTrader: (13)

That is only a question that you can answer.

Offer him $400.00 and have the money in your hand, then see what happens. The good thing here is that you don't need the car so you can offer him anything you wish.

wAnKeLsReVeNgE

Lets dispense right now with the "Myth" that a "Rotary" is like every other motor, and is therefore easy to work on or diagnose. The good Doktor is correct in some respects, you do need fuel, spark and compression. But how the rotary achieves those things, especially the spark and compression, are nothing like a conventional engine. But don't take my word for it. Call around shops in a 10 mile radius of your home and ask if they can work on rotaries, or if they are like any other engine. Talk to techs at dealerships. Call Mazda service and ask a tech there.

A rotary is like a conventional engine like Obama is like McCain.

To suggest that hyouriittai, who says he has limited or NO experience working on ANY kind of automobile engine, can pick up a rotary for $400 and get all the help he needs on this board to get it going is commendable. You are lucky, hyouriittai, that a moderator will make himself available, presumably at your shop, to help you on the project. I believe he does live in either Oregon, or is it Washington? Which is definitely close to you. That's a plus. I wish I had someone here when I was learning the trade, as they say.

Let me make sure I heard this part right. You are buying a car from a JUNKYARD? A car that was scrapped? Does this car have a salvage certificate? You might want to find out. If it does, you might want to research what is involved in getting a title. Make sure you are sitting down. And another thing: a salvage title car is worth 25 percent less than a good title car. And it takes forever to sell one. Ask me how I know.

I'll say one thing, this is an eye-opening thread.

God bless us all, each and every one.

hyouriittai

Wankelsrevenge: I didn't even consider this. I think I was too taken by the "find" to realize that, yes, the car was at a crusher. I haven't ever considered buying a vehicle without first finding out about its title status, and I suppose, for some reason, I neglected to do so this time due to the fact that it was to be a "project car." Thanks for the reality check.

I thought of checking the vehicle out today, after work, but I am putting the brakes on, both thanks to the Doctor's advice on the cash-in-hand, and Wankel's regarding the title issue.

It may be some sort of blasphemy to utter on these boards, but I have also been looking at a couple Nissan S30 chassis vehicles in the area, so my options aren't limited to the GSL-SE, by any means.

Thanks again guys.

wAnKeLsReVeNgE

When salvage yards take in a car, they are supposed to turn the title into the state, and they get what is called a "salvage certificate" in return. In your case, maybe this happened, maybe it didn't.
It's also possible that the car was totaled and rebuilt years ago, so it has a "salvage" or "R" or "reconstructed" title. All these things mean the same---for whatever reason it was totaled by an insurance company and sold at auction. These type auctions are only open to salvage dealers---see www.copart.com and click on the "About Copart" link.
Rule of thumb is, you need to look when it was totaled. The closer that date to the year of manufacture, the worse the damage.
Bottom line is, that a reconstructed title is a red mark regardless. You can say it was NEVER damaged, but people will be scared off nonetheless. After all, "it got an "R" somehow!" is what buyers think. If you are a buyer, you can use this leverage to lower the price.
BUT keep this in mind: Scrap right now is at least $10.50 a 100 lbs, so calculate the weight of the car and you can see what it is worth in scrap. Catalytic converters have platinium in them, the RX-7 has three, and that adds to the value of the car to a scrap dealer---$100 easily---if the CATS are there. That is in addition to the weight. So $250-$300 likely what the car is worth in scrap+ $100 CAT value= $400 or so. At $700, the dealer may have pulled the CATS already, and is trying to double his money by selling to you instead of the scrap dealer in China or India.

If he pulled the CATS already he may sell to you for $400 and get $100 or so more than what China gives him. It's all about $$$ friend.

I always get a kick out of the people who say--"Buy it, go ahead, it will work out fine!" but at the end of the day, you are going to be standing out there alone. Trust me.

I don't know your age, but here's an analogy--at work there's always a younger guy--20-something--getting married, and all the older women at the office---married for 15-20 years or more---are always THRILLED about the wedding and go bonkers with parties and such. See, they want THAT guy to be as miserable as they are!

Thats what these boards are like. 'Go Buy!" "It's ez TO FIX!" "I'd buy that in a second!" "The mere idea these are different than regular motors is a myth!" is what you'll hear.

"Look before you leap" is what I say.

I absolutely LOVE the Datsun/Nissan 240Z. or 280ZX. Don't get the 2+2, they look somehow different. I like the later years, 80-83. 1983 was the last year for that body style. They can be got cheap on craigslist too, about the same $$$ as rotaries. They made a 'california special" model in the early 80s that is a cool orange color, and there's a nice two-tone blue and silver model I liked. They made a turbo model, I know you like that, but I steer clear. More stuff to break. More expensive to fix. There was a 10th anniversary model too that came in rare colors.

Since we are on the topic of other cars we like, check out the BMW E30, 1990 or so, and the BMW 6-series through 1989. These were sharp cars. Also check out Porsche 944 from 83-87. Sharp cars in black. fairly cheap in cali too.

I don't have a Porsche or 280ZX yet, but have a few E30 BMWs and they are fun cars.

In fact, I just had two deliveries from San Francisco--a 1983 LE RX-7 (limited edition--made in 1983 only---5,000 made TOTAL) and a 1991 BMW 325i. The RX-7 runs excellent, had a new (reman) Mazda motor purchased in 2003 for $2,000. 30K miles since, which is why I paid $600 for the car. It has a glass sunroof too, which is worth $100-$150 on ebay. Good title, straight body, needs paint, seats, dash cover. Complete history + receipts + original dealer window sticker. I can paint as I work at a shop, but paint+materials alone are $700. I will have time invested in this one, but the history is a great plus on Ebay should I decide to sell.

Gotta know your stuff.