Gsl vs gsl se
05-14-14 | 08:04 AM
#26
Originally Posted by black82gsl
Problem is I probably can't sell mine for enough to buy an SE. And I seriously don't think I could find a cleaner car than mine around here. Besides faded paint my car is mint. Seriously not a touch if rust. The under body is the cleanest I've ever personally seen. Maybe I just need to get a better engine. I had a 13b out of a 91 gxl that I sold. Kicking myself in the *** now.
Doing clutch jobs is easy enough so I'll use this setup until it slips, then swap to 225mm stuff.
05-14-14 | 12:46 PM
#29
05-14-14 | 04:23 PM
#30
Comparing stock to stock even if you take 85 gsl vs 85 gsl-se, the se is the best bet due to extra power, more popular lug pattern, and better gas mileage due to fi. assuming both cars have had the same maintenance and abuse. That's the only difference in those years between the two. But if you take a pre '84 gsl compared to gsl se then you get a bigger rear end with beefier drive shaft with non replaceable u joints as well as minor interior differences added to the list. But that's about all the differences stock to stock.
05-14-14 | 04:26 PM
#31
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,366
Likes: 380
From: Phoenix, AZ
From an '80LS to my '84SE, the recurrent problems I had with fuel float valves and seats, flooding and poor performance were exactly why I got rid of my '80 and still drive the '84SE today.
When you consider that in stock form, the -SE had 35% more horsepower and torque than a stock 12a, along with a flatter torque curve instead of the peak of a 12a engine, then the -SE starts to make more sense on paper. Once you get behind the wheel and drive one, the decision is easy.
Fuel injection is easier to manage, more reliable and fuel efficient, and develops more power - and also why EVERY manufacturer of production cars today uses it. Even Porsche/Bosch were pursuing mechanical fuel injection in the '60's to garner the benefits.
For me, the -SE is the only way to fly but with so few SA/FB on the road today, I'm just happy to see ANY other first gen RX7 on the roads these days.
When you consider that in stock form, the -SE had 35% more horsepower and torque than a stock 12a, along with a flatter torque curve instead of the peak of a 12a engine, then the -SE starts to make more sense on paper. Once you get behind the wheel and drive one, the decision is easy.
Fuel injection is easier to manage, more reliable and fuel efficient, and develops more power - and also why EVERY manufacturer of production cars today uses it. Even Porsche/Bosch were pursuing mechanical fuel injection in the '60's to garner the benefits.
For me, the -SE is the only way to fly but with so few SA/FB on the road today, I'm just happy to see ANY other first gen RX7 on the roads these days.
05-14-14 | 06:44 PM
#32
I can see why you stuck with the GSL-SE. The way it works seems to work better for you. I'm the opposite. I'll take a suitably modded Nikki over a stock or aftermarket EFI any day. I also don't care for stock Nikkis either because they tend to have issues like you said. Or the over-complicated choke makes the engine difficult to start, or the accel pump doesn't "accel".
Yes, I understand we're supposed to be comparing stock for stock, and as such I'd like to once again mention a recent S4 NA swap into a GSL I did a few weeks ago. The last time I drove a stock GSL-SE was over ten years ago so I have to make a comparison with the recent S4 NA setup. I also recently drove a stock Nikki on a 74 ported Y 12A which again isn't exactly stock but it's the best I can do. Obviously the S4 NA swap has a lot more power everywhere. Just enough power to have some fun, but nothing major or truly noteworthy, I'm sad to say. I honestly thought it'd be better than it turned out, even with an RB long primary exhaust and a light flywheel. Speaking of a light flywheel, the 12A had one but was a bit too gutless for me to want to drive daily. Felt like I was wasting my time waiting for it to get to 4k or 6k or wherever it gets "fun". I'd rather have that at a lower RPM to be honest. Less wear on the engine etc. So I took a chance and read as much as I could stand on Nikki modding and gave it a whirl. Glad I did. I already had several 74 ported 13Bs under my belt and I knew they have awesome potential, but they needed a good carb which always seemed to be lacking around here other than big V8 carbs mounted sideways or italian racing carbs. Been there, done that. However the stock carbs always drove a lot better - just lacked any real power. Until the Yaw/Sterling and um I guess my carbs now, too haha. No they are not for sale you guys, so shut up.
This is what these cars should have had stock. Much easier and nicer to drive than the S4 NA with more power and torque everywhere, faster easier starts, corners without "glitches" or stumbles, decent gas mileage once it's tuned (gotta get a wideband and jet for 13 to 14 at cruise). The 12A isn't even in the same league - feels like a different kind of engine.
For me, being into these as long as I have and always looking for more, I think I've finally found it. So you'll forgive me for coming into these threads and proselytizing, I hope. And the best part is anyone who's ever ported a rotary or ever used a die grinder or a lathe, can do this kind of work. No need to spend thousands on aftermarket EFI unless they really, really need it, like that guy doing a half bridge. But even then I think the Nikki could still possibly work if he hogged out his secondaries to 31mm (basically the max) or just pulled the venturis out and went venturiless. I mean it's half bridgeport, why not? The info is here on the forum or on Sterlings old website using the internet archive. Well, maybe not that specific info, but it's pretty straight foward.
Yes, I understand we're supposed to be comparing stock for stock, and as such I'd like to once again mention a recent S4 NA swap into a GSL I did a few weeks ago. The last time I drove a stock GSL-SE was over ten years ago so I have to make a comparison with the recent S4 NA setup. I also recently drove a stock Nikki on a 74 ported Y 12A which again isn't exactly stock but it's the best I can do. Obviously the S4 NA swap has a lot more power everywhere. Just enough power to have some fun, but nothing major or truly noteworthy, I'm sad to say. I honestly thought it'd be better than it turned out, even with an RB long primary exhaust and a light flywheel. Speaking of a light flywheel, the 12A had one but was a bit too gutless for me to want to drive daily. Felt like I was wasting my time waiting for it to get to 4k or 6k or wherever it gets "fun". I'd rather have that at a lower RPM to be honest. Less wear on the engine etc. So I took a chance and read as much as I could stand on Nikki modding and gave it a whirl. Glad I did. I already had several 74 ported 13Bs under my belt and I knew they have awesome potential, but they needed a good carb which always seemed to be lacking around here other than big V8 carbs mounted sideways or italian racing carbs. Been there, done that. However the stock carbs always drove a lot better - just lacked any real power. Until the Yaw/Sterling and um I guess my carbs now, too haha. No they are not for sale you guys, so shut up.
This is what these cars should have had stock. Much easier and nicer to drive than the S4 NA with more power and torque everywhere, faster easier starts, corners without "glitches" or stumbles, decent gas mileage once it's tuned (gotta get a wideband and jet for 13 to 14 at cruise). The 12A isn't even in the same league - feels like a different kind of engine.
For me, being into these as long as I have and always looking for more, I think I've finally found it. So you'll forgive me for coming into these threads and proselytizing, I hope. And the best part is anyone who's ever ported a rotary or ever used a die grinder or a lathe, can do this kind of work. No need to spend thousands on aftermarket EFI unless they really, really need it, like that guy doing a half bridge. But even then I think the Nikki could still possibly work if he hogged out his secondaries to 31mm (basically the max) or just pulled the venturis out and went venturiless. I mean it's half bridgeport, why not? The info is here on the forum or on Sterlings old website using the internet archive. Well, maybe not that specific info, but it's pretty straight foward.
05-14-14 | 07:21 PM
#33
From an '80LS to my '84SE, the recurrent problems I had with fuel float valves and seats, flooding and poor performance were exactly why I got rid of my '80 and still drive the '84SE today.
When you consider that in stock form, the -SE had 35% more horsepower and torque than a stock 12a, along with a flatter torque curve instead of the peak of a 12a engine, then the -SE starts to make more sense on paper. Once you get behind the wheel and drive one, the decision is easy.
Fuel injection is easier to manage, more reliable and fuel efficient, and develops more power - and also why EVERY manufacturer of production cars today uses it. Even Porsche/Bosch were pursuing mechanical fuel injection in the '60's to garner the benefits.
For me, the -SE is the only way to fly but with so few SA/FB on the road today, I'm just happy to see ANY other first gen RX7 on the roads these days.
When you consider that in stock form, the -SE had 35% more horsepower and torque than a stock 12a, along with a flatter torque curve instead of the peak of a 12a engine, then the -SE starts to make more sense on paper. Once you get behind the wheel and drive one, the decision is easy.
Fuel injection is easier to manage, more reliable and fuel efficient, and develops more power - and also why EVERY manufacturer of production cars today uses it. Even Porsche/Bosch were pursuing mechanical fuel injection in the '60's to garner the benefits.
For me, the -SE is the only way to fly but with so few SA/FB on the road today, I'm just happy to see ANY other first gen RX7 on the roads these days.
Woah buddy.... No, FI doesn't make more power. Its dynamic so it is capable of adapting to changes. Even minute ones like small temperture changes or other extra ambiant O2 from day to day. BUT IT IS NOT MORE POWERFUL. You are using the SAME fuel, burning the SAME air, at the SAME pressures = SAME power output.
And bikes, lawnmowers, and generators are all still carbed. The only reason why they will eventually go fi is because companies make more money when stuff breaks.
I just don't like craming technology into something that pre-dates it or if it doesn't feel right. It seems like fuel injection is too far ahead and unnessary for these simple cars. I mean fuel injection right next to a solid rear axle and pitman arm steerage?
Rant over... Peace dude
OP: I'f I was on a quest for power I'd just drop an S5 N/A keg in your current car. Then buy the apropriate carb/exhaust manifolds.... Done deal. Cheaper, faster than finding an SE, and more rewarding.
05-14-14 | 08:00 PM
#34
Here is the reason a 12A GSL (Nikki powered) is better than a GSLSE (as eloquently stated by Jeff above):
"I can see why you stuck with the GSL-SE. The way it works seems to work better for you. I'm the opposite. I'll take a suitably modded Nikki over a stock or aftermarket EFI any day. I also don't care for stock Nikkis either because they tend to have issues like you said. Or the over-complicated choke makes the engine difficult to start, or the accel pump doesn't "accel".
Yes, I understand we're supposed to be comparing stock for stock, and as such I'd like to once again mention a recent S4 NA swap into a GSL I did a few weeks ago. The last time I drove a stock GSL-SE was over ten years ago so I have to make a comparison with the recent S4 NA setup. I also recently drove a stock Nikki on a 74 ported Y 12A which again isn't exactly stock but it's the best I can do. Obviously the S4 NA swap has a lot more power everywhere. Just enough power to have some fun, but nothing major or truly noteworthy, I'm sad to say. I honestly thought it'd be better than it turned out, even with an RB long primary exhaust and a light flywheel. Speaking of a light flywheel, the 12A had one but was a bit too gutless for me to want to drive daily. Felt like I was wasting my time waiting for it to get to 4k or 6k or wherever it gets "fun". I'd rather have that at a lower RPM to be honest. Less wear on the engine etc. So I took a chance and read as much as I could stand on Nikki modding and gave it a whirl. Glad I did. I already had several 74 ported 13Bs under my belt and I knew they have awesome potential, but they needed a good carb which always seemed to be lacking around here other than big V8 carbs mounted sideways or italian racing carbs. Been there, done that. However the stock carbs always drove a lot better - just lacked any real power. Until the Yaw/Sterling and um I guess my carbs now, too haha. No they are not for sale you guys, so shut up.
This is what these cars should have had stock. Much easier and nicer to drive than the S4 NA with more power and torque everywhere, faster easier starts, corners without "glitches" or stumbles, decent gas mileage once it's tuned (gotta get a wideband and jet for 13 to 14 at cruise). The 12A isn't even in the same league - feels like a different kind of engine.
For me, being into these as long as I have and always looking for more, I think I've finally found it. So you'll forgive me for coming into these threads and proselytizing, I hope. And the best part is anyone who's ever ported a rotary or ever used a die grinder or a lathe, can do this kind of work. No need to spend thousands on aftermarket EFI unless they really, really need it, like that guy doing a half bridge. But even then I think the Nikki could still possibly work if he hogged out his secondaries to 31mm (basically the max) or just pulled the venturis out and went venturiless. I mean it's half bridgeport, why not? The info is here on the forum or on Sterlings old website using the internet archive. Well, maybe not that specific info, but it's pretty straight foward. "
I especially like the part where he points out that EFI systems can drain your bank account, whereas everyone already owns a Nikki.
(I've got 10 Nikki's, with stock intakes, waiting in the parts shed for Jeff to publish his "suitably modded Nikki" procedure).
But Jeff forgot the best part.
If you have a GSL with a 12A and a Nikki, you can keep your classic blue "Mazda Rotary Engine" air intake, the Soul of the Machine:
"I can see why you stuck with the GSL-SE. The way it works seems to work better for you. I'm the opposite. I'll take a suitably modded Nikki over a stock or aftermarket EFI any day. I also don't care for stock Nikkis either because they tend to have issues like you said. Or the over-complicated choke makes the engine difficult to start, or the accel pump doesn't "accel".
Yes, I understand we're supposed to be comparing stock for stock, and as such I'd like to once again mention a recent S4 NA swap into a GSL I did a few weeks ago. The last time I drove a stock GSL-SE was over ten years ago so I have to make a comparison with the recent S4 NA setup. I also recently drove a stock Nikki on a 74 ported Y 12A which again isn't exactly stock but it's the best I can do. Obviously the S4 NA swap has a lot more power everywhere. Just enough power to have some fun, but nothing major or truly noteworthy, I'm sad to say. I honestly thought it'd be better than it turned out, even with an RB long primary exhaust and a light flywheel. Speaking of a light flywheel, the 12A had one but was a bit too gutless for me to want to drive daily. Felt like I was wasting my time waiting for it to get to 4k or 6k or wherever it gets "fun". I'd rather have that at a lower RPM to be honest. Less wear on the engine etc. So I took a chance and read as much as I could stand on Nikki modding and gave it a whirl. Glad I did. I already had several 74 ported 13Bs under my belt and I knew they have awesome potential, but they needed a good carb which always seemed to be lacking around here other than big V8 carbs mounted sideways or italian racing carbs. Been there, done that. However the stock carbs always drove a lot better - just lacked any real power. Until the Yaw/Sterling and um I guess my carbs now, too haha. No they are not for sale you guys, so shut up.
This is what these cars should have had stock. Much easier and nicer to drive than the S4 NA with more power and torque everywhere, faster easier starts, corners without "glitches" or stumbles, decent gas mileage once it's tuned (gotta get a wideband and jet for 13 to 14 at cruise). The 12A isn't even in the same league - feels like a different kind of engine.
For me, being into these as long as I have and always looking for more, I think I've finally found it. So you'll forgive me for coming into these threads and proselytizing, I hope. And the best part is anyone who's ever ported a rotary or ever used a die grinder or a lathe, can do this kind of work. No need to spend thousands on aftermarket EFI unless they really, really need it, like that guy doing a half bridge. But even then I think the Nikki could still possibly work if he hogged out his secondaries to 31mm (basically the max) or just pulled the venturis out and went venturiless. I mean it's half bridgeport, why not? The info is here on the forum or on Sterlings old website using the internet archive. Well, maybe not that specific info, but it's pretty straight foward. "
I especially like the part where he points out that EFI systems can drain your bank account, whereas everyone already owns a Nikki.
(I've got 10 Nikki's, with stock intakes, waiting in the parts shed for Jeff to publish his "suitably modded Nikki" procedure).
But Jeff forgot the best part.
If you have a GSL with a 12A and a Nikki, you can keep your classic blue "Mazda Rotary Engine" air intake, the Soul of the Machine:
05-14-14 | 08:10 PM
#35
05-14-14 | 09:32 PM
#36
Can't resist
Another 2 cents...The SE I drive now has ~160k miles on all original motor/trans, and sits sedentary and neglected over half the year. Every summer now since buying this car in ~2006, I drive it less than 5k miles/year to pass emissions(no air pump, and RB road exhaust) and when I do drive it...I DRIVE THE UFF OUT OF IT. I'm talking >=~7.5k shifts at the redline buzzer on a regular daily basis, not to mention other extreme mechanical abuses...Either I'm incredibly stoopid and lucky(no empirical evidence in my past to support either of these arguments) OR, it's a REALLY durable, effective setup if properly maintained[the 13b EGI-RE]....
I guess it helps that since I drive the car less than half the year, that it doesn't get too old and leaving wanting more power...After parking it for the winter for ~7 months and getting it out again, it's like a rebirth every year year of something actuallyFUN to drive....Last factory compression test I had done showed REAR=7.3,7.3,7.2 , and the FRONT= 7.2, 7.2, 7.3. I can't realistically expect/imagine this kind of performance/reliability out of any other ~30 year old ~160k mile production line vehicle....LOVE IT
I guess it helps that since I drive the car less than half the year, that it doesn't get too old and leaving wanting more power...After parking it for the winter for ~7 months and getting it out again, it's like a rebirth every year year of something actuallyFUN to drive....Last factory compression test I had done showed REAR=7.3,7.3,7.2 , and the FRONT= 7.2, 7.2, 7.3. I can't realistically expect/imagine this kind of performance/reliability out of any other ~30 year old ~160k mile production line vehicle....LOVE IT
05-15-14 | 10:34 AM
#39
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 31,191
Likes: 2,824
From: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Mercedes-Benz W125 Rekordwagen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ive got one on my P port, i'm down like 50hp, but the neighbor doesn't come downstairs holding his head....
05-15-14 | 02:51 PM
#40
GSL-EV
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 448
Likes: 4
From: Rapid City, SD
I like both cars but the SE is just a little stiffer suspension and if you take a long road trip it makes the car a little less enjoyable. After about 2 hours in the SE I find I NEED to get out and walk around. On the other hand for carving corners on twisty mountain roads the better brakes, tires and extra power certainly add to the enjoyment.
05-15-14 | 04:55 PM
#41
Everyone has an opinion and thats great but lets look at the source of the 2 cars - MAZDA. I think Mazda Corp. would argue that the the SE is the better of the 2 cars thus commanding top dollar price tag back in the day (over $16K) vs. considerably less for a S/GS/GSL.
Mazda took the best of the best and made it one better - the GSL-SE. It was the flagship for 84-5 in the RX7 lineup.
Others mentioned it already but the SE provides more stock HP (135 vs 101). More Torque. Better handling. Larger and safer brakes (larger vented rears vs. smaller solid rotors), a better rear gear (4:10 vs, 3:90). Reliability of the EFI, FMOC, better tranny, beefier suspension, everything standard except leather or Power Steering.
So, Mazda really turned up the heat with the SE model. Not to mention collectibility. Collectors tend to be attracted to the top of the line performance models and limited production cars.
Now, having said all that, I think the GSL is still a very nice car and having owned a couple it has its place in the lineup. But there is no comparison to driving a stock SE vs driving a stock GSL. The 13B wins hands down.
Now, can you make a GSL out perfom a SE, sure, but in stock form the SE is the better car.
Nowadays the SE offers more in terms of serviceability because of the engine, bolt pattern, etc... as others already talked about.
So, it all depends what angle you are coming at the discussion from and what you ultimately want to do/have/be with your car. I collect only SE's because of the above reasons, but if somebody offered me a GSL, I would not trun it away because it was not a SE . Everything has a place and a purpose so just enjoy what you have. Like another posted said, its nice to see ANY FB on the road nowadays!
Mazda took the best of the best and made it one better - the GSL-SE. It was the flagship for 84-5 in the RX7 lineup.
Others mentioned it already but the SE provides more stock HP (135 vs 101). More Torque. Better handling. Larger and safer brakes (larger vented rears vs. smaller solid rotors), a better rear gear (4:10 vs, 3:90). Reliability of the EFI, FMOC, better tranny, beefier suspension, everything standard except leather or Power Steering.
So, Mazda really turned up the heat with the SE model. Not to mention collectibility. Collectors tend to be attracted to the top of the line performance models and limited production cars.
Now, having said all that, I think the GSL is still a very nice car and having owned a couple it has its place in the lineup. But there is no comparison to driving a stock SE vs driving a stock GSL. The 13B wins hands down.
Now, can you make a GSL out perfom a SE, sure, but in stock form the SE is the better car.
Nowadays the SE offers more in terms of serviceability because of the engine, bolt pattern, etc... as others already talked about.
So, it all depends what angle you are coming at the discussion from and what you ultimately want to do/have/be with your car. I collect only SE's because of the above reasons, but if somebody offered me a GSL, I would not trun it away because it was not a SE . Everything has a place and a purpose so just enjoy what you have. Like another posted said, its nice to see ANY FB on the road nowadays!
05-15-14 | 05:37 PM
#43
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
the only car they've built since that rivals it is the Miata.
a better rear gear (4:10 vs, 3:90)
05-15-14 | 10:24 PM
#45
05-16-14 | 12:18 AM
#46
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
From: Port Edwards,Wisconsin
Well people have a lot to say in this thread lol. I guess I'll probably just build the car I have. I was looking at a nice fiero gt too. I'm a big fan of those cars also. But I love the rotary. I'll just have both I wish I knew some one locally that really knew their **** about building rotaries.
I wish I knew some one locally that really knew their **** about building rotaries.
05-16-14 | 06:49 AM
#47
1 mo gen.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: Brandon, MS
Well I guess it would be better if u had a 84 or 85 to go with the se as they were the top end. If u have an earlier one I guess the gsl would be ur best bet.
Sent from my iPad using RX7Club. how bout that!
Sent from my iPad using RX7Club. how bout that!
05-16-14 | 12:35 PM
#48
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
From: South Jordan UT
I haven't driven as SE but carbs suck. In all fairness, my '82 s had a good running Nikki and was lots of fun but other than that, my carb experiences were bad. I got a '79 with a street port and Dellorto and it had NO bottom end power so I shelled out for a sterling nikki about 4 years ago. Sterling took the money and ran. There goes $400. I got a rebuild kit for the dellorto and it worked much better but flooded in turns and I never got it to stop doing that. A bad habit for an autocross car to say the least.
About a year ago, I went with a megasquit and an IDA based throttle body and after going through some early issues to get it going, it ROCKS!! I picked up 25 hp on the dyno, it starts and runs cold or hot weather and IN TURNS TOO!! The power band is lots wider as well. In short, Fuel Injection is the bomb even on a 12A, I can only imagine that to get nothing but better when I build the 13B "core" engine I've bought when I rebuild it next winter.
All in all, I'd say go with either but inject whatever you've got and enjoy a car that works all the time with little tuning or upkeep required.
LET THE FLAMING BEGIN
About a year ago, I went with a megasquit and an IDA based throttle body and after going through some early issues to get it going, it ROCKS!! I picked up 25 hp on the dyno, it starts and runs cold or hot weather and IN TURNS TOO!! The power band is lots wider as well. In short, Fuel Injection is the bomb even on a 12A, I can only imagine that to get nothing but better when I build the 13B "core" engine I've bought when I rebuild it next winter.
All in all, I'd say go with either but inject whatever you've got and enjoy a car that works all the time with little tuning or upkeep required.
LET THE FLAMING BEGIN
05-16-14 | 12:42 PM
#49
All RX7's are great cars in and of themselves. So, enjoy whatever you have and be happy everytime you turn the key that it is a RX7 you are seated in regardless of the model.
You get admiring looks no matter what model it is!
You get admiring looks no matter what model it is!