hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

I may give that a try too.

Replacing the steering stuff made a big difference to the way the car drives. It was definitely worth the effort.

The steering feels much stiffer and connected now. The steering honestly isn't as good as rack and pinion, but it doesn't impede the way the car drives and in my opinion even with the slow and imprecise steering it's much more fun to drive than a power rack and pinion. I'd seriously take the manual recirculating ball steering any day over a power rack and pinion steering setup. A manual rack and pinion would be a different story altogether though, but the manual steering adds a lot of feel, rawness and dimension to the car. It may not be "good", but it is fun to drive.
Yea I didn't realize when I bought the bar that it would require modification of the swaybar brackets. This almost makes me not want to use it since I don't love modding things. What do you mean by "radius the body of the car"? If the bar hits the body of the car or any suspension components it's definitely not going on the car, and I'll sell it.

Is the larger bar worth it? My impression was that it really added to the handling of the car, but if it's going to cause me headaches and issues, I'd rather just sell it and learn my lesson from not doing more research. I was also shocked with how much it weighed, I feel like added a lot of weight up front is iffy. Thoughts anyone?

GSLSEforme

Attempt to put the bar thru the brackets,only way you'll know. It's a very close,but not quite fit type of thing,requires a little grinding with a dremel tool or the like. Check first,every car/bar are different. Look at the body where the factory bar makes 90 degree bend to go back to lca,see the curved relief made in the body above the bar? This keeps the bar from hitting the body on suspension compression. The larger diameter of the RB bar requires the relief to be larger,not hard to accomplish. I took a sharpie and marked the body both sides following the curve of the original relief but enlarging it by 1/4". If you haven't already removed the swaybar/tension rod brackets,do so,that bracket is right behind the piece you need to trim,you need the room. I used an air powered hack saw with a thin metal cutting blade(think jig saw blade) that allowed me to follow the curve of the original radius. Used an angle grinder to clean up/polish finish with a 3M medium grit pad,looks just like the original,only larger. Finish by painting the fresh edges with touch-up paint,i had black on hand so what i used. You can clearance the brackets for swaybar much easier while you still have them off-then reinstall everything. My car's an SE,i didn't know any of this,had all these pieces on & off 3 x before completion-i had glassbeaded,refinished all these pieces beforehand,had to do all over again. Maybe you can benefit from my learning curve. As far as not wanting to cut/modify my clean car,no one is more picky than me about this kind of stuff. I want to keep my car original as possible,except for modifcations to make it run/handle/stop better-and can be put back to original condition if i want to. This mod for swaybar clearance is where i made a concession for the handling. If you like the way your car handled before,this is a very worthwhile addition to all your other suspension work. The first test drive afterward you will see you made the right decision. I took pics to document all the mods to my car,have pics of where i trimmed the body like i outlined above,can post if yoo'd like a look.

LongDuck

In brief, yes, the RB front bar is worth it in my opinion for a street driven car driven in a spirited fashion. It may not be the best bar for a track car, but it improves body lean considerably and for an experienced driver makes the rear more predictable and moderate before you lose traction. Yes, I said the rear.

The minor modification to clear the bar ensures you have unimpeded travel under suspension compression and you want to have plenty of clearance for smooth rotation of the bar. If you don't, the bar will bottom-out when it hits the unibody and youll get squirrely handling at that point. It only takes 10 min, and will ensure you don't damage your bar mounts, too.

Well worth adding the bar, especially if you have the sprest of the modifications going in at the same time. My SE felt totally different after updating the front suspension with new parts, and makes the car much more fun to drive.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

I'd definitely be interested in seeing some pictures if you have them!
Okay, well I have the tools to do the modification, I'll probably split that out into a different thread if I have trouble. I'm just reluctant to cut up my beautiful FB. I'm still probably a few weeks out from being ready to do that portion anyways. Again, I probably should have done some more research first, but I got so carried away with ordering things that I didn't put more thought into it. This car will only be driven on the street, so I'm just looking for changes here and there to make the car more fun to drive. The bar isn't going to add any understeer will it? My car is very tail-happy (snow tires may be contributing to this), but that's part of what makes it fun for me. I've never had a car that you can steer with the throttle like this car, but then again this is my first small, lightweight RWD car I've owned or driven.

In case anyone has lost count, the things I have done so far:

- Moog tie-rod ends
- Moog idler arm
- Rare Parts pitman arm

What I have, but haven't installed yet:

- new OEM lower control arms
- Energy Suspension control arm bushings
- Energy Suspension tension rod bushings
- Energy Suspension endlinks
- RB front sway bar

Are there any more "gotchas" that I don't know about, or anything I should know? Am I going to have any problems with this setup, will it be nice for a street driven car? Assuming I go forward with it, the sway bar will probably be my only real "mod" to the car. I'm kind of mixed on going to a smaller steering wheel, the steering feels pretty responsive now that I've gotten used to yanking the wheel around.

GSLSEforme

Dis connect and remove lca,install your energy suspension inner bushings in new arms,leave them off car til swaybar is mounted. Gives you room to manuever bar around while installing. Remove swaybar/tension rod brackets(3 bolts,1 nut each)make your clearance mods to body. While still have your brackets off car, fit the new bar thru mounting hole in brackets,clearance if necessary. Install bar/brackets& bar bushings and clamps to bracket. Prop up swaybar end with block of wood? so it's in it'relatively installed height,reinstall lca to strut housing,next reinstall tension rods,then attach swaybar links to lca-in that order. Kinda wordy but trying to give you step by step so there's no gotcha's. You WILL be glad you did this when all done,each step you're taking is going to make the car handle&ride better. The modifications to the body/brackets are minor compared to the benefits of increased cornering power. Will get some pics up for you when i get a moment. Glad to help,maybe pm if needed to keep from clogging up this thread with step by step instructions.

GSLSEforme

Some pics

GSLSEforme

Look at the bottom of black paint,that's the actual edge of trimmed area, Black touch-up paint all i had at the time

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Question: I'm planning on probably doing the lower control arms first out of all these items, in the FSM it states that you should lower the car and bounce it a few times before torquing the bolt from the cross-member to the lower control arm, and then torque it to the factory spec. How do you do this? Do you lower the car then bounce it, then lift it again, or somehow try to torque it without lifting the car again?

GSLSEforme

[QUOTE=hcaulfield57;12047613]Question: I'm planning on probably doing the lower control arms first out of all these items, in the FSM it states that you should lower the car and bounce it a few times before torquing the bolt from the cross-member to the lower control arm, and then torque it to the factory spec. How do you do this? Do you lower the car then bounce it, then lift it again, or somehow try to torque it without lifting the car again?[/QUO My car was on jackstands all around while i did suspension,exhaust,brakes. Put all suspension pieces together,snugged everything. Last put wheels on, lowered car down on ramps i have,bounced front of car to settle everything, then crawled under to torque inner lca bolts and torque tension rod nuts to 100 ft lbs. The car sits too low to get under to torque fasteners so you have to let it down on some type of support to allow you to get underneath it. It needs to be sitting on its suspension to torque to spec. Maybe a couple of used wheel/tires would work,whatever you use has to support the car safely so you can get under it. Recommend you do lca &tension rod bushings at same time so you can torque all fasteners once, any other way is .double work

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

Use ramps to do the bouncing g and tightening. May want the rear up in the air as well.

GSLSEforme

^^ forgot to mention that

derSchwamm

iTrader: (1)

I actually did this exact thing about 6 months ago, with all new parts. A shop was able to press new ball joints into the control arms for me, so whether or not you're supposed to, you can press them in. The only thing I didn't do yet is the wheel bearings. Have you done those yet? I'm curious how much of a difference it makes

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately I've gotten busy the past few days and not had time to work on my car. I didn't have a spring-scale for setting the preload on the wheel bearings, so I didn't get started on it last weekend. And now I don't have ramps so I can't do the lower control arms. Hopefully in a few weeks I'll get some time. I'll make sure to post some updates once I do the work.

The play is minimal and doesn't really bother me much anymore, it is what it is, it'd be nice to have more communicative steering, but it's pretty good once you're actually turning. I'm hoping to improve the wander the car has now, which is amplified at highway speeds making the car a bit unnerving to drive at times. I'd also like to improve the feedback and communication from the steering, I'm hoping bushings will make a difference here.

I'm still split on whether to install the sway bar or not. It's not so much that I'm worried to make the cuts, it's just that I feel guilty cutting up my mint low-mileage FB.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

Whiteline bar fits without cutting. Depending on what you are trying to achieve the stock bar is pretty good with new bushings.

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

The wandering is probably an alignment issue. If you have zero toe or some toe out
it will do this. Also if it pulls to one side when braking and you know the brakes are
good it could be uneven toe as well.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Basically I'm trying to achieve the best handling and steering I can, without:

- Spending a ton of money
- Completely re-engineering or extensively modifying the stock suspension

I would likely make an exception for rack and pinion, but it's unlikely someone is going to make a kit at this point - the car is just too cheap, there can't be much money in it, and furthermore it handles fine with the stock steering. I want to keep the car as stock as possible, and for every "mod" to be easily reversible. This isn't a race car, nor am I race car driver, I just want it to handle well on the street.
I hope it's not an alignment issue, since I just got the car aligned when I redid the steering linkage. The alignment shop had the toe in a bit. Still want to fix the braking issue, the pulling to the right doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

I mentioned this in another thread but the FSM spec is for 1 - 2 inches of play in the wheel,
so the center freeplay you feel is probably to spec unless its more than 2 inches.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

My 83' FSM states 5 - 20 mm (0.2 - 0.8 in), must be different for the S1 cars. I measured and have 14 mm, so within spec and I think adjusting the box will only end up hurting it in the long-run. The freeplay can be unnerving when you make a tiny steering correction and realize that nothing has happened. This happened today, highway turns a bit to the left, I moved the wheel a bit, to realize that nothing has happened. The on-center unpredictability can be scary. The steering is the only thing I don't like about this car, actually I like even the steering, I just don't like it when it reacts in a bizarre way.

Keep in mind this is the only manual steering, only recirculating-ball, only small car, only responsive car I've ever driven. Others who have been driving longer than me, and have driven a wider variety of cars may have a different experience. The car feels good a slower speeds, but quickly becomes scary on the highway, I'm hoping once I fix everything on the front-end this will go away. I still think my snow tires can't be doing me any good in this regard.

LongDuck

Toe is important on a car this light - it doesn't take much to steer the car, so any excessive toe will cause the car to catch ruts and grease strips and make it feel nervous at speed. Through happenstance, I managed to set my car at about 1deg toe-in, and camber as near to vertical as possible. Caster was unchanged, as you only get so much adjustment range out of moving the upper strut mount to 4 different positions - usually, it just makes it worse.

The end result is a car that is rock-steady at speed, even better than before I did the suspension and steering parts replacement, and it just tracks beautifully. Try to tune OUT the toe bit by bit and this can be done by hand very easily. Any amount of toe-OUT will cause immediate issues as the car will try to drive itself off the road at every opportunity, and won't recenter steering after a turn, taking force for you to get the car going straight again. You'll know when you've passed neutral and gone into toe-out, trust me.

Other than that - DO THE BAR. You'll thank us all later,

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

I try to align mine with toe at 0, I like the quicker turn in and the dartiness doesn't
bother me at all. True too much toe out and it dances around more.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the response, glad to know that it's possible to get rid of the wander. Makes highway driving a bit nerve-racking. Here is my alignment print-out that I have from when I got my alignment done after replacing the steering linkage. Anything stand out as being wrong?



With regards to the swaybar I'm probably overthinking it... ...but leaning towards doing it now due to the positive response here.

GSLSEforme

Do it!

KYPREO

Your cross camber looks wrong. 1 degree variation between sides is massive.

Are both struts installed the same way? It does make a difference with stock struts how the strut top is oriented when installed in the strut tower, as the strut is offset from the bolt pattern.

You should have them installed so that the strut top is biased IN towards the engine and BACK towards the firewall (ie for maximum negative caster and positive caster).

Freeskier7791

Caster will also help stabilize the car and remove some dartiness, have you considered getting caster/camber plates

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I have but I'm not interested in going to a full blown coilover system. I don't want to spend the money and am trying to keep the car more stock than not. My understanding was that neither the Ground Control, nor the T3 camber plates would work with standard struts?
Unfortunately I was not there, my father took the car over since I was busy with work that day. I'll probably end up bringing it back after I get all my other suspension items sorted out. Thanks for the input.