After a second look, I'm not so sure what those bottom HP and torque curves are for. I don't think that they are for the '06 GTI though. If they were for the GTI they would be up above the FC curves. A GTI should be in the 175-200 hp range. I'm wondering if they are some kind of baseline curve that the user just plotted for a comparison?? The top curves are definitely for the FC though...

 

Here's the pics from the meet:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...99#post7828999

 

Cool videos Ray. Your engine by looks great, but I couldn't hear the sound of the motor over that roaring of the stock fan... lol

 

Here's a video of my silver 85 GSL "The Silver One". It has a stock clutch fan too.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z-rmWUhVAFc

Nice Pics DJ, you guys must have lot's of money down there on the coast, I don't think I've ever seen so many FDs in one place before.

 

THose are some nice crisp picutres!

I like the numbers too. What state is that guy in and what was the outside air temp? This would be very interesting to know.

 

Not New Hampshire, that's for sure. If you are talking about DJ's photos of his meet, that's in South Carolina, probably down by the coast. It's been warm down this way lately (I'm in Georgia, near Atlanta), today we are enjoying a balmy 72 degrees. And what luck, we have an RX-7 meet tonight, the OGTA meeting at Crit's house.

 

The Original thread of this is here:

https://www.rx7club.com/naturally-aspirated-performance-forum-220/simple-gain-suggestions-n-owners-715386/page5/

Its purpose was just for that to show Efan vs clutch. Its off of an FC, and the runs were made withing about 5 minutes aparts. The temperatures and what not are show in the side of the graph.

I can even see more HP gain for our FB's though since I would image Mazda would of tried to make the FC style one a bit more efficient maybe. And theirs would have a higher chance of working a bit more properly than our older cars.

The poster of that will be providing a video of those runs also for further proof.

 

Either way, what are you trying to prove here? Its simple, the fan WILL NOT rev to 7500 rpm.

I'm simply trying to point out with reality that the stock set-up is NOT as "free" as we are being misled to believe. It does take power to keep turning that fan even with the clutch 'disengaged' which it never really can since it's bolted to the engine.

Bottom line: The 'debate' is effectively over -- With no other changes, the FC saw an 11 hp INCREASE at the rear wheels simply by ditching the stock Mazda mechanical fan set-up and going to an Efan.

IOW, that's how much hp is lost as a system to the factory set-up. The hard data does not lie and opinions are simply just that after this definitive dyno test.

 

Don't worry Mar, someone will somehow still find something to argue about. They always do for some reason. I'm with you though. I'm glad someone finally did this and put the critics to rest. Can't wait to see the video.

 

Personally, I would like to see further testing. I think to really prove the gains; you would need to do the following:

- do say 3 pulls w/ clutch fan
- do 3 pulls w/ e-fan
- do the same, but reverse order to make sure doing 1 before the other isn't influencing the results

- repeat w/ multiple cars with similar configuration (say 5 FBs, w/ 12As, at least 2 or 3 w/ new fan clutch). This is to prove that the results are not screwed up because the clutch fan was shot and locked up.

It would be nice if someone that had dyno access could do something like this. 1 run w/ 1 car doesn't prove anything to me. I know that others have seen gains too in older muscle cars, but most of those were going from a clutch-less mechanical fan to electric.

As far as the electric fan being ON/OFF for the test, it doesn't really matter. The e-fan being on would only reduce RWHP by about 0.5 HP, or less.

Anyway, scientifically, you would need something like this to prove the gains. I do think there are gains to be had, but real proof would be nice.

Also, you have to consider that the dyno is not realistic for an everyday driving experience. I mean, how often do you drive at WOT and not go anywhere? Just saying that even if the dyno proves say 5-10HP gain, there may not be a noticeable difference in everyday driving. I imagine that the clutch fan is fully locked up for the dyno run, but say cruising on the freeway, it might be freewheeling.

Just things to consider.

 

Yeah, besides the debate was over three or four pages or so, fan cluthes won, everything since then has just been entertainment.

A lot of if this were true and if that were true then something else would be true, which would prove once and for all that efans make more horsepower.

Like an FC and a VW dyno test performed, undoubtedly, by somebody who was determined to show that efans make horse power. Never mind that nobody seems to know what the picture means in the first place. It looks scientific, so it must be proof that an FB fitted with a Taurus efan will have 10% more horsepower.

Hmmm...., whatever happened to common sense and a healthy dose of skepticism?

But like Jamie, I'm eagerly awaiting the Efan from Hell movie that makes your rotary crank out 10 extra horsepower, right up there with the 10.5 earthquake movies and the viral epidemic that ate New York.

Great entertainment, but I wouldn't do it to my 7.

 

Hmm, assuming that they dyno results are accurate, then it could mean an even bigger gain for an fb. You have to figure that the 11 horses lost on an fc would also mean 11 horses lost on an fb. Since an fb starts out with fewer horses than the fc in the first place, that would mean a greater percentage of gain for our cars...

Either way, I don't really car. I know that I'm cool, because I've got an Efan! And Ray, we're not going to let you sit at our table for lunch until you get with the program! lol

 

GSL-SE addict : This is the second one in that same thread. The original poster if you noted on the first pages claims 13rwhp IIRC. And also have dyno sheets of those posted in the same thread. This other guy decided to do another run to prove him right again that its a gain that could be had.

 

OK Ken, I'll shut up. The social pressure is getting to me.

But you efan guys remember this post when you are sitting by the side of the road someday, engine overheated and a dead efan melting your wiring.

(Not you Ken, I know you put yours in right, it's the other kids I'm worried about).

Over and out, and very, very cool,

Ray

 

Yeah, I saw something about that. Still would be nice to have more testing, though. Like what I said, maybe different dynos too. Just to eliminate sources of error. Unless you do something like this you will always have people questioning the results.

Besides, you see a lot of people install an e-fan and feel nothing or a very slight improvement. It seems like if there was a 10% gain if power to the wheels, it would be very noticeable. But then, it may be like I said on how what happens on the dyno may not be the same as what is felt as everyday driving.

This is just my view as someone with a scientific/research background. A claim here and there does not make something true. You need to set up a real experiment, eliminate as many variables as possible, and test away. The more data that is gathered, the more certain you can be on the conclusion.

I have nothing against e-fans. Hell, I'll probably install one myself. Just stating what it would take to really prove the increase.

 

I love it when someone decides to "interpret" the results by setting a goal that is impossible to attain, so thus and therefore, this present test is probably invalid......It is valid. It is a REPEAT of what we see over and over and over and over again EVERY TIME a mechanical fan, clutch style or not, is replaced by the much more efficient electrical fan.

Ray, the fan DOES NOT create horsepower, that is a given...it frees up available hp that can be used at the rear wheels. West Tech, RPM and Meziere have all gone on record to say that electric fan gains can ALSO be seen on an engine dyno.

Here are the results of one more different car from High Performance Pontiac, Jim Hand's well sorted out wagon:


Before:




After:




The FACTS of the matter:




There is the proof from 4 different sources, from 4 different cars.

An electric fan frees up HP in the drivetrain to give you more rear wheel horsepower to use vs. what is available with the stock factory clutch mech fan.

Simple as that...and proven once again.

Also, please note the complete lack of a fan shroud on the Efan set-up...with the fan blades basically right on the radiator core, there is no need for a shroud beyond aesthetics...another point found and proven by the Hand team.

 

Umm... I never said that the results were invalid. I am stating what you would really need to do to prove the point. Yes, there are other examples of the power increase. I would just like to see a real experiment as to the testing of this. I do have a PhD, I know what it takes to scientifically prove something.

Anyway, doesn't matter. Is it me, or does that dyno chart look a bit off? I am not sure what mods this car has, but it is a fairly stock 6-port, right? Peak torque is supposed to occur at 3.5k-4k depending is S4 or S5, this one is peaking at like 5.5k. Could be a modded intake, exhaust, porting, etc... Just wondering what the mods are if any.

Edit: Nevermind... They just posted the mods on the other thread. Explains the shifting of the torque peak.

 

Thanks for the pic comments. The next ones that get posted of my car won't be as pretty. I wrecked today on the interstate. At least I'm ok...

I didn't see it, but apparently an elderly woman parked her new Caddy on the side of the interstate and just decided to walk out into traffic, causing a semi in the right lane to lock up, swerve into my lane and nearly jacknife. I locked up and swerved to miss him, barely did but went off the road and went into the cable barrier, taking out one of the supports and then went under all the cables and came out the other side. I get out of the car in time to see this lady once again venture out into traffic, where this time she was hit by another semi. I called 911, the lady was pretty fucked up but alive when the ambulance left. I don't know if she made it or not, I sure hope so. I don't know if she was trying to kill herself or demented on meds or had alzheimers or what.

The whole top of my car got fucked up, windshied and pillar trim are gone. Busted front bumper and air dam, dented hood, l fender, l door where the mirror got bent up, the whole top esp. at the windshield got chopped up, then the cables came back down and took out my antenna and dented the rear quarter.

 

Oh man! I'm sorry to hear about that man, but like you said at least you survived to walk away.

Many years back, I was first on scene when a 93 year old man was driving down the interstate and realized he had forgotten something at home. He turned around, and started driving the wrong way down the freeway. Head on collision occurred shortly after involving his pickup truck and a very small compact driven by a teenage girl. He died about 20 minutes later, just as the ambulance was pulling up. She was very messed up, but I believe she survived the incident...

 

Thanks Ken. At least the cables slowed me down so I didn't cross over into oncoming traffic. I was also able to drive her home, though I think I made a flat spot on a tire or lost alignment as it was a little bumpy. Good thing I have recent pics because I know the claims adjuster is going to say "Your 25 year old car has a book value of $300 so we're going to total it". I'm not at fault but I am in a tough spot since the lady was not in her car so he said her car insurance probably wouldn't cover it. The trooper said I may have to file a civil suit to get the car fixed. It may be against an estate, I don't know yet. I can't exactly call and say "How's your wife, oh yeah by the way you're responsible for the damage to my car."

 

If it was a 9% loss on the FC than it would be close to a 9% loss on the FB. It's the same reason drivetrain losses are expressed as a percentage rather than a fixed hp fixure. Frictional and inertial losses increase as horsepower increases.

 

But it wouldn't be a percentage, it would be a fixed amount. If the stock fan uses 13 horsepower, then that's what it would use on a 800 hp motor, or on a 100 hp motor. So, the lower the hp of the engine, the greater percentage of gain. Know what I mean?

 

Uh-oh. I sense a debate inside the debate getting ready to start...

 

If I had free dyno time, I'd be happy to do some pulls both ways. I've got my Taurus fan from the junkyard and will be installing it once the -SE's all sorted out, but I would love to document this stuff, given the chance.

I'm personally a big believer in electric fans, particularly the 2-speed setup. I like that I can ground a Taurus fan's low speed circuit through a thermistor and relay, or I can ground the high-speed circuit through a toggle switch and relay. When driving (which is where I'm most concerned about efficiencies) nothing as efficient as an electric fan turned off.

 

to each his own. this is like watching a very bad soap opera.