Easier ATF trick
11-19-03, 08:52 PM
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Easier ATF trick
so ive got a gsl with an 86 13b, and the sidedraft dellorto. i dont know how easy it is for me to get ATF down it properly. it was hard enough to get the damn air filter off. so a highly trained specialist told me to do this:
take the leading spark plugs out, get some sort of siringe to put as much ATF in there as i can. then pull the ignition....things..... out, i dont know what the are, they're plugs in the distributer. i know what they are though. so the engine wont fire. then turn it over with the key a few times. let it sit.
what is the disadvantage of this if any? is that too much ATF?
*im assuming i put the lead plugs back in before i turn it over?
take the leading spark plugs out, get some sort of siringe to put as much ATF in there as i can. then pull the ignition....things..... out, i dont know what the are, they're plugs in the distributer. i know what they are though. so the engine wont fire. then turn it over with the key a few times. let it sit.
what is the disadvantage of this if any? is that too much ATF?
*im assuming i put the lead plugs back in before i turn it over?
11-19-03, 09:50 PM
#2
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I took all of my plugs out and squirted in the ATF (it doesn't take much). I took a socket and ratchet, turned the engine over a few times by hand, let it sit a few hours, reinserted my plugs, and turned the key.
Sadly, it did nothing for my engine, 2 apex seal springs were bent.
Sadly, it did nothing for my engine, 2 apex seal springs were bent.
11-20-03, 05:17 AM
#3
ATF sucks. Why do you want to pour that garbage into your engine? Did you just read the ATF treatment article on the mazspeed site?
I just aquired a dellorto and the engine it was on. It used to run really bad. It even experienced carbon lock. Long story short, an improved ignition system was the answer, not some ATF in the engine.
If you have to pour something in it, lots of people swear by MMO. I've seen it float out chunk after chunk of carbon from my low compression 20B (compression is much improved now). ATF would have just sat there sloshing around while cranking the engine.
I'm going to do a side by side comparison with ATF and MMO on some old used apex seals soon.
There is a little something that ATF does do in a running engine. I think it must be added while the engine is running for it to do its magic. Anyway, it tends to produce solids during the combustion process if I remember correctly. Say what? Yeah, that's nasty.
ATF will never find its way into any of my engines, running or not.
I just aquired a dellorto and the engine it was on. It used to run really bad. It even experienced carbon lock. Long story short, an improved ignition system was the answer, not some ATF in the engine.
If you have to pour something in it, lots of people swear by MMO. I've seen it float out chunk after chunk of carbon from my low compression 20B (compression is much improved now). ATF would have just sat there sloshing around while cranking the engine.
I'm going to do a side by side comparison with ATF and MMO on some old used apex seals soon.
There is a little something that ATF does do in a running engine. I think it must be added while the engine is running for it to do its magic. Anyway, it tends to produce solids during the combustion process if I remember correctly. Say what? Yeah, that's nasty.
ATF will never find its way into any of my engines, running or not.
11-20-03, 06:38 AM
#5
I read your email
Originally posted by lemonade
so, what is mmo, and can i do that same process with mmo?
so, what is mmo, and can i do that same process with mmo?
Marvel Mystery Oil – Denny
11-20-03, 06:38 AM
#6
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mmo, Marvel Mystery Oil, any local parts store has it,,red plastic bottle,,,personally i have not tried it in my engine, i used the atf, but thats b4 doing my homework...
11-20-03, 09:29 AM
#7
I still don't advocate using *either* "treatment" unless you have serious compression problems and have nothing to lose short of a rebuild!
Just doing an ATF or MMO "treatment" when your car is running alright just doesn't make sense. The only thing I've used ATF for is unseizing a seized engine. ATF was the only thing that would eat through the carbon-lock short of a rebuild. It was already siezed, I didn't have the experience or money to rebuild it, so I did it.
Either way, the engine is designed for low-octane, high-quality gasoline, mixed with a little oil (from OMP or Premix)... not to have a sudden burst of ATF CRAP blasted down it's barrels...
Grr.. sorry guys, I just get frustrated sometimes. These "treatments" are not things that should be done like oil changes as preventative maintanence... but rather as last-chance ways of getting your compression back without having to pay for a rebuild.
Jon
Just doing an ATF or MMO "treatment" when your car is running alright just doesn't make sense. The only thing I've used ATF for is unseizing a seized engine. ATF was the only thing that would eat through the carbon-lock short of a rebuild. It was already siezed, I didn't have the experience or money to rebuild it, so I did it.
Either way, the engine is designed for low-octane, high-quality gasoline, mixed with a little oil (from OMP or Premix)... not to have a sudden burst of ATF CRAP blasted down it's barrels...
Grr.. sorry guys, I just get frustrated sometimes. These "treatments" are not things that should be done like oil changes as preventative maintanence... but rather as last-chance ways of getting your compression back without having to pay for a rebuild.
Jon
When my motor was siezed from 4 years of carbon buildup, I used ATF. I don't advocate it's use for anything other than unsiezing engines, since alot of people say it can be not-so-nice to the engine under other conditions. In this case I see you have little choice.
I've never tried MMO but if it does the same things as ATF, you should probably proceed like this:
1. Pull all four plugs
2. Squirt liberal amounts into all four holes and let sit at least an hour. (up to a day if it's really buggered in there)
3. Turn the engine by hand, pushing the top of the main pulley away from you (if you're standing on the driver's side). You can turn back and forth to get it moving, but in the end you want to be turning it this way so that the rotor edge scoops excess MMO and forces it to dribble out the bottom spark plug holes
4. Repeat the process, rotating the motor so that you can soak all the apex seals in MMO.
5. At the end, make sure you do three or more full rotations of the main pulley away from you, so that as much excess MMO and carbon crap as you can get is pushed out the bottom spark plug holes (the more MMO left in the engine, the worse it is for cat-clogging smoke and other not-so-good things).
6. Replace the plugs (make sure they're good and clean and dry before they're reinstalled) and try to start the car.
You'll probably want to have another set of plugs handy because leftover MMO fouls spark plugs pretty bad. Or at least ATF does, I'm not sure about the famous Marvel Mystery Oil.
Good luck guys. Hopefully this will un-carbonize your engine, and get it running again. You might also have to consider the idea that perhaps the low compression leading to siezure is caused by a buggered apex seal. If this is the case, your engine might need a rebuild. I'll caution now that if you get the engine turning, but it's *really* hard to turn and MMO doesn't seem to make it better, *DO NOT* try to start it. A loose apex seal in a cranking engine will score up the sides of the chamber and make it un-rebuildable. I know, my friend Eric just went though this.
I've never tried MMO but if it does the same things as ATF, you should probably proceed like this:
1. Pull all four plugs
2. Squirt liberal amounts into all four holes and let sit at least an hour. (up to a day if it's really buggered in there)
3. Turn the engine by hand, pushing the top of the main pulley away from you (if you're standing on the driver's side). You can turn back and forth to get it moving, but in the end you want to be turning it this way so that the rotor edge scoops excess MMO and forces it to dribble out the bottom spark plug holes
4. Repeat the process, rotating the motor so that you can soak all the apex seals in MMO.
5. At the end, make sure you do three or more full rotations of the main pulley away from you, so that as much excess MMO and carbon crap as you can get is pushed out the bottom spark plug holes (the more MMO left in the engine, the worse it is for cat-clogging smoke and other not-so-good things).
6. Replace the plugs (make sure they're good and clean and dry before they're reinstalled) and try to start the car.
You'll probably want to have another set of plugs handy because leftover MMO fouls spark plugs pretty bad. Or at least ATF does, I'm not sure about the famous Marvel Mystery Oil.
Good luck guys. Hopefully this will un-carbonize your engine, and get it running again. You might also have to consider the idea that perhaps the low compression leading to siezure is caused by a buggered apex seal. If this is the case, your engine might need a rebuild. I'll caution now that if you get the engine turning, but it's *really* hard to turn and MMO doesn't seem to make it better, *DO NOT* try to start it. A loose apex seal in a cranking engine will score up the sides of the chamber and make it un-rebuildable. I know, my friend Eric just went though this.
And to think, with the amount of ATF I used to unsieze the rotors, I saw one small puff of white smoke, then regular exhaust
I've said it b4 and I'll say it again, IMHO ATF is for unseizing engines, and once they're turning by hand, you turn the rotors towards you to push it out the bottom spark plug holes... that way you don't **** over your cats, or if you're straightpiped, any local area furry animals and neighbors.
I've said it b4 and I'll say it again, IMHO ATF is for unseizing engines, and once they're turning by hand, you turn the rotors towards you to push it out the bottom spark plug holes... that way you don't **** over your cats, or if you're straightpiped, any local area furry animals and neighbors.
If you're gonna ATF, only do it to unsieze engines
If you're gonna ATF, do it RIGHT, purging as much as possible
If you're gonna ATF, get an extra set of plugs handy
and
If you're gonna ATF, don't try and put it down the carb! That will *guarantee* that it gets into your exhaust manifold! put it in via the spark plug holes, and make sure you're turning the engine so that it comes *out* the same way without getting stuck in your exhaust.
Jon
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11-20-03, 09:38 AM
#9
Oh, and BTW, in case it wasn't obvious from the previous post
NO, DON'T POUR ATF DOWN THE CARB OF A RUNNING ENGINE!
If the engine is running, it doesn't need ATF. Check your OMP, change your oil, and take it out for a few good drives on the highway... redline it a few times... that'll blow carbon out. As long as your apex seals are properly lubed, you can blast carbon out by revving the engine. Don't rev *stupidly* high, just don't drive like a granny.
Just please don't ATF a perfectly good engine. Especially not while running like Jeff20B hypothesized.
Jon
Jon
NO, DON'T POUR ATF DOWN THE CARB OF A RUNNING ENGINE!
If the engine is running, it doesn't need ATF. Check your OMP, change your oil, and take it out for a few good drives on the highway... redline it a few times... that'll blow carbon out. As long as your apex seals are properly lubed, you can blast carbon out by revving the engine. Don't rev *stupidly* high, just don't drive like a granny.
Just please don't ATF a perfectly good engine. Especially not while running like Jeff20B hypothesized.
Jon
Jon
11-20-03, 02:49 PM
#12
Originally posted by vipernicus42
Especially not while running like Jeff20B hypothesized.
Especially not while running like Jeff20B hypothesized.
The magic includes not only ruining spark plugs, but let's not forget about the cats being ruined too. It's also not meant to burn.Cranking the engine backwards works after a fashion, but some will always get blown down the exhaust.
MMO is harmless as far as I know. It was made to burn afterall. It might be a good idea to at least pull your plugs and look at them after a 'treatment' lol.
My 20B gets closer to running every day. It's got brand new BUR7EQ plugs in the leading holes. There is still a tiny amount of MMO at the bottom of each rotor housing that can be seen through the exhaust ports. I'm looking forward to looking at the plugs after the engine is fired up for the first time. I predict the plugs will look fine (if the AF mixture is stoich and all that).
I agree the Amsoil Powerfoam or that techron cleaner should be your first choice. MMO would be my second. ATF isn't even on the list.
I know what the problem is. That article is still up on the Mazspeed site, and people keep reading it.
11-20-03, 04:42 PM
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i read it a while ago, here. i'll try a compression check. if its bad.....i'll try one of those three. this amsoil, is it the same process as mmo and atf?
why wouldnt i want to clean my engine? huh?
why wouldnt i want to clean my engine? huh?
11-20-03, 05:07 PM
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ATF is a new one to me. I had never heard of it before I got online. I htink I did read it on Mazspeed and several times here but i haven't done it yet. Good thing I guess. I always used plain ol oil to get a flodded rotor going again and the ATF sounded like it made sense. Thanks for the posts.
11-20-03, 06:42 PM
#15
I read your email
Originally posted by Jeff20B
I agree the Amsoil Powerfoam or that techron cleaner should be your first choice. MMO would be my second. ATF isn't even on the list.
I agree the Amsoil Powerfoam or that techron cleaner should be your first choice. MMO would be my second. ATF isn't even on the list.
11-21-03, 08:51 AM
#17
The ATF thing is an old piston-engine mechanic's trick for carbon-siezed engines. That's where I originally heard about it before I got online here. An old mechanic friend of my dad's said that he used it to unsieze piston engines that didn't warrant the $$$ of a rebuild. I didn't have the $$ to rebuild mine, and it was either ATF, rebuild or replace. So I decided to find the best damn way to do the ATF thing with the *least* harm to my engine.
And that's the procedure I said above. I can't vouch for MMO or Amsoil... but you also have to think: is amsoil strong enough to *unsieze* an engine? Clean it maybe, but that carbon lock stuff is Ub3r strong.
I only got a small puff of smoke, and considering throughout the process I used half a windex bottle of ATF, I think that's pretty good. (It basically means all but a teensey tiny bit of the ATF was purged and ended up in a big black-and-red pool on my driveway).
Anway, if you guys have had good experiences with Amsoil that's great I just needed something where "desperate times called for desperate messages"
Jon
And that's the procedure I said above. I can't vouch for MMO or Amsoil... but you also have to think: is amsoil strong enough to *unsieze* an engine? Clean it maybe, but that carbon lock stuff is Ub3r strong.
I only got a small puff of smoke, and considering throughout the process I used half a windex bottle of ATF, I think that's pretty good. (It basically means all but a teensey tiny bit of the ATF was purged and ended up in a big black-and-red pool on my driveway).
Anway, if you guys have had good experiences with Amsoil that's great
I just needed something where "desperate times called for desperate messages"Jon
11-21-03, 12:51 PM
#18
Originally posted by vipernicus42
I can't vouch for MMO or Amsoil... but you also have to think: is amsoil strong enough to *unsieze* an engine? Clean it maybe, but that carbon lock stuff is Ub3r strong.
Jon
I can't vouch for MMO or Amsoil... but you also have to think: is amsoil strong enough to *unsieze* an engine? Clean it maybe, but that carbon lock stuff is Ub3r strong.
Jon
that's where I'd go with the Techron concentrate over Power Foam.
Power Foam is a great engine decarbonizer/cleaner, but I will not vouch for it being able to free up any seized engine.
My engine decarboning/cleaning routine is pretty much the same for rotary and piston engines.
1. Warm the car up to operating temp.
2. Remove airfilter lid and element.
3. With the engine running, spray about 1/4 can of PF right down the carb while you use your free hand to work the throttle manually to keep it running. It will smoke and stink like crazy, this is normal.
4. Continue to run the engine until it ALMOST quits smoking (this ensures that there is still some PF present in the chambers and on the rotor faces) then shut it down.
5. Disconnect the coils, and crank another 1/4 can into the motor. Make sure to dump the power foam that accumulates in the secondaries by opening the secondaries manually. It will take several times of filling the carb, dumping and cranking to do 1/4 can.
6. Now wait 30-45 minutes, or up to several hours if you want, although I think most of the cleaning action is achieved while the engine is hot.
7. Reconnect the coils and take the car out for a drive of at least 30 minutes at highway speeds to insure that any loosened scale gets thoroughly blown out of the motor and doesn't redeposit itself somewhere worse, like an apex seal slot.
I've had good results with this method, the cars are noticeably smoother running, with better throttle response. I usually do this about every six months.
08-06-04, 08:25 PM
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The ATF is the fluid version of removing the exhaust manifold and intake snorkel and throwing popcorn or glass aquarium gravel down the throttle body. Crunch crunch, braaap, "Look mah, all clean. Well, maybe not, mah, the ATF washed carbon chips under my corner seals, and once the ATF baked off, my compression was worse than before mah."
08-06-04, 08:38 PM
#20
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I don't use ATF or MMO. Whenever I've had to start an engine thats been sitting for a while that needed a little help, I just poured a little oil down the intake. No need for me to go to the store to get something special.
08-06-04, 09:39 PM
#21
Exactly! A recent rebuild of mine didn't want to start very easily. The problem turned out to be bad spark plugs. Before I discoverd this, I poured a little oil down the carb. It would fire right up every time. There is no need to pour anything else down the carb.
As for my 20B, when I test-ran it, it only blew a little smoke. MMO doesn't destroy oil O rings like ATF does. The MMO was sitting inside the combustion areas (all three) for nearly a year before I finally had a chance to test fire it. There was a slight puff of smoke for a second, and then the exhaust went clear. I'll know more about the engine's internal condition when I drive it. Should be pretty soon as the car is almost done.
Long Duck had problems with MMO in his high mileage GSL-SE engine when it loosened all the carbon that had built up on his oil O rings/seals over the years. It caused his engine to smoke even more than it did before the treatment.
When he gets his engine rebuilt, he ought to try a set of Atkins Viton oil O rings and brand new Mazda oil seals with new springs. As for me, I've used the Viton O rings with used (barely within spec) oil seals and the older rebuild smokes a little for like one second at startup. The recent rebuild I mentioned earlier only has like 6 miles on it, but I recall its smoke output dropped to almost nothing at startup.
The Viton seals are a tiny bit thicker, and should resist the flattening that the OEM O rings seem to go through as they age. I've pulled engines apart where the oil O rings are so dead that the oil seals stick to the side plates just from a thin film of oil and nothing more. Thosee engines were smokers.
As for my 20B, when I test-ran it, it only blew a little smoke. MMO doesn't destroy oil O rings like ATF does. The MMO was sitting inside the combustion areas (all three) for nearly a year before I finally had a chance to test fire it. There was a slight puff of smoke for a second, and then the exhaust went clear. I'll know more about the engine's internal condition when I drive it. Should be pretty soon as the car is almost done.
Long Duck had problems with MMO in his high mileage GSL-SE engine when it loosened all the carbon that had built up on his oil O rings/seals over the years. It caused his engine to smoke even more than it did before the treatment.
When he gets his engine rebuilt, he ought to try a set of Atkins Viton oil O rings and brand new Mazda oil seals with new springs. As for me, I've used the Viton O rings with used (barely within spec) oil seals and the older rebuild smokes a little for like one second at startup. The recent rebuild I mentioned earlier only has like 6 miles on it, but I recall its smoke output dropped to almost nothing at startup.
The Viton seals are a tiny bit thicker, and should resist the flattening that the OEM O rings seem to go through as they age. I've pulled engines apart where the oil O rings are so dead that the oil seals stick to the side plates just from a thin film of oil and nothing more. Thosee engines were smokers.
08-06-04, 10:28 PM
#23
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Amsoil power foam is what atkins recommends also. I have used the seafoam you get at most auto parts stores and it is sold as a decarbonizing agent and is stronger than mmo. I am inclined to think the amsoil foam and seafoam are pretty similar except the seafoam is pretty cheap. Give it a try. I used atf once to build compression after severe flooding and all I can say is motor oil worked better for deflooding. I put carboned up rotors in atf before a rebuild and let it sit for 2 days and it did very little if anything. So I don't know why people say pour atf and let it sit a day before cranking.
08-07-04, 01:57 AM
#24
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ok, ok, im so confused.. but mind u im new!! lol all right so this is a method of decarbonizing the engine??? and this makes it better? lol....so the car im getting should get it done to it ASAP?? and if so... what method should i use.. that is the best...
