Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I'm now done proving it to myself. That was the most important part. The rest is history. I know I've got a skill that I can continue to develop. I know I'll come away from this with something cool. I've just got to grind the rotary gears some more.

Sterling

Yeah, Jeff...

Take this lightly, and don't get pissy-
I did endorse "my pal Jeff" as the "inventor", if not simply the villiage transcriber - I really, REALLY wanted it all to end there! And your last responce is a perfect demonstration of why! (I've seen this in the past.)

Honestly, my friend, once again the challenge for the "Junkyard Wars" Ignition Sytem Trophy has brought about the one character flaw I have chastized you for in the past...
Your ******* overflowing ego!!!

Jeff - There's no denying that REVHED went right out there and stuck that extra ignitor in his car. Perhaps it was lil' ole me - who knew nothing of ignition basics at the time, I might add - that prompted him to do so; Yet only after reading yer ideas of ****** up yer buddies truck!()

However, the more you dwell (hee-hee!) on this issue, the more shallow it makes you look.
Rise to the surface like the cream that you are, Jeff ole boy, and...
drop it!
At least people pay lots of attention to your write up, and I always see your name attached with the dlidfis (what-the-****-ever-it-is!) system.
Nobody seems to bother much with my write-up about modding the stock Nikki.

REVHED, you are one of "those guys" that when I see your name attached to a post, I just know for sure that it must be worth reading. Just like Jeff...or mar3, peejay, -the "core" 1st geners here.
But you can be as opinionated as the rest of us.

Tell ya what, guys - I go out and look under my hood, and I'm thankful for these sites that are chock full of info.
What I don't do is say, "Thank GAWD for that Jeff20B!"

So you guys are fightin' fer credit over an idea that somewhere, someone has already done, that makes my car faster, and that I don't dream of shaking anyones hands for.

Sorry. Cure cancer, and I'll be yer bitch fer life.

Now please tell me we can ******* MOVE ON!?

peejay

Issue number two: Hacking a PCM from a GM product and using it on a rotary.....

rxtasy3

iTrader: (2)

Just my half cents worth butThis is where I first found out about this DLIDFIS ignition. Just thought I'd share.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Yeah, I too pay close attention to the posts made by Sterling, REVHED, and peejay, (not familier with mar3, but he's cool). It was only REVHED's pressing of the issue that armed my ego cannon. But I'm spent now (shootin' blanks hehe).

Yep, we may have been the first people to have hooked up DLIDFIS out of all the guys at Mazspeed, but the parts have been around since '81 so I'm sure some creative racers or even Mazda engineers were probably cruzin'round in a wasted spark FB some 20 odd years ago.

So let's get back to doing what we do best (other than the bickering ) and keep thinking up and writing about new (to us lol) ideas so others can benefit.

peejay, were you talking about something for Leading direct fire?

peejay

PCM - Powertrain Control Module. Now get the picture? (Not for the ignition, for the fueling...)

V8kilr

an msd 6a would be the best,
but only in a msd system

unless you wanted two boxes then you could step up to a msd 6al,

but if you truley want the best its not in msd.

if i had the money i would have went jacobs,
but the complete system would have set me back about $1,000 or more

Blitz0309

Thanks for the tip mar, i guess next paycheck is going to get the MOPP4876728... hell, anything that will help out my little car is worth it.

mar3

iTrader: (8)

I wasn't joking. You distilled what was only oral tradition before and put it on paper and defined the stock DLIDFIS. My joke was on xman who started this thread. Go through the whole thing and you'll see he never checked on it again. The people that want to oppress your claim to a little slice of history were the targets of the "no one else reads this" jibe. That and also to get everyone shaken to the proper perspective again. Always stake and defend your claim. You don't know where it will lead. It took him 20+ years, but the guy that really invented the intermittent wiper idea finally got Ford and a host of other OEMs to start choking up money for their use of his idea without his consent. Just a thought...I'll say it again...send royalty checks to Jeff20B, who knows what he'll come up with next if he's gotta little flow?

xman

Thanks REVHED. Was pretty sure it would work. Just wanted to make sure before attempting it. Hooked everything up, and she's running better than ever before! Followed the wiring as per Jeff20B's website (Thanks Jeff!) and voila...smoooth runn'in! Still have a couple of questions though:
1). Timing-how do you adjust the leading-trailing split? Understand the leading, but not the trailing??? (I'm an ignition rookie!). Spoke to an import mechanic-friend of mine, and he doesn't exactly understand it either (maybe he's not that good of a mechanic? sorry Simon!)
2). Any suggestions on a good set of leading coils that won't completely bust my bank!? (I'm using stock diamonds from a wrecker)

p.s. Saw your series 2 pics. Swweeetttt ride. What size rims were those, and what kind of ground clearance do you have?

xman

I'm still here mar3! Was just reeeaaaallll busy, and didn't have the time to check out the post. Didn't think this thread would have opened up such a can of worms!!!! Took a quick look at it a few days ago at work, but didn't want to use up a whole stack of paper printing it! Regardless of who originally thought of DLIDFIS there's no patent, so who cares?!? Just joking! Without innovators like Jeff20B/Sterling/REVHED rookies like myself wouldn't know how to unlock the full potential of our Rx's. Keep up the good work fellas!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Hey thanks mar3, but as I once told Sterling, I don't wish to get money for DLIDFIS. However, once I start building (manufacturing) my own ignition kits, I'll think about selling them for at least the cost to build them. But a little extra could help to develop new things. I don't know. The whole 'getting money' thing just doesn't feel right somehow.

xman, I'm glad you got it working! If your L/T split was previously set correctly, there is no need to retime it. However, if you'd like to get a different split, just loosen the two screws that hold the Trailing vacuum diaphram (pot?) and move it in or out while watching the Trailing mark move. I'm not sure of the specifics for a 12A, but I'm sure somebody else does.

mar3

iTrader: (8)

The split is 8 degrees....also look up the threads on side-cut plugs if you want the DLIDFIS system to hit its real potential...As Yaw put it, it really makes a difference... I see that Jeff20B was(is?) a moderator at that other place...what does the power feel like? Mike-P-28 wants to know! (running for cover...)

Sterling

Heehee!
Anyone who pushes for themselves in that spot as much as Mike did deserves to be a mod!

By xman:

"Without innovators like Jeff20B/Sterling/REVHED rookies like myself wouldn't know how to unlock the full potential of our Rx's. Keep up the good work fellas!"

Thanks. It means alot.
Finding out a new idea for the old engine is pretty hard these days. The automobile as we all know it has pretty much been completely explored.
It's hard to come up with anything that is , #1- reasonably feasible; #2- actually works; and #3; that has not already been done before in some fashion that is too obviously a variation of the same thing.

It could take a lifetime!
That bastard Jeff got lucky!

I will be a sports car enthusiast till I die. And should I somehow become wealthy in life, I will still (!!!) always love the inexpensive beauties such as the rx-7.
I'm not a recycler (shame on me), but I truley believe that developed society throws out too much good ****! Especially here in America. (Underdevloped countries would probably love to have what we call "scrap yards".)
I will always try to find the inexpensive ways for the common-wallet having car enthusiast to better his machine.
(My favorite show is "Junkyard Wars".)
Hence my scrapyard blower project.

Anyway, that's why I paid so much attention to Jeff and his attempts at making a better ignition...It was for the guy who deserves it, but can't afford it, and that was the coolest part of it all.
Yaddayaddayadda.
Gotta ove a good heavy Merlot!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Thanks Sterling! By the way, I looked for my chopped rotor today but couldn't find it. If and when I do, I'll see if it'll work in a points cap for the 'short look' you're after.

mar3, I never flexed my mod muscles over there, save one time that a thread drifted from one topic to another. I flexed a little and they complied and formed a new thread specifically for superchargers or whatever the originall topic drifted to. It really wasn't a big deal, which is probably why I don't recall much of it, but the new thread was much better anyway. A good move on my part? Erm probably (I never think about it).

I don't have access to the HTML source code of the site. Only Dan does. I've only had to ask him to change something once, but that's it. It flows smooth, like rotary power over there, even though the coding for the BB is a little weird sometimes. Oh well, I've gotten used to it.

I've thought about setting up my own BB/forum, but then I'd probably have to pay for some server space. It'll probably never happen. Hey, I'm the 'poorman' Remember? Heheh!

Even if I ever somehow afford to do a 20B project, I'll always do as much of the cheap stuff as I can get away with. It surely keeps the costs down (and makes things more interesting)!

(hmm, this thread seems to be drifting a little, d'oh!)

I think I'll build a DLIDFIS kit for my rotary powered MG Midget very soon. (ah, back on topic )

REVHED

Anyone have any thoughts on firing the leading and trailing together? By doing that you could easily eliminate the dizzy cap. Just space the pickups 90* apart(there's just enough room... I checked) and chop two lobes off the reluctor. The only drawback would be no wasted spark on the leading. What do you think?

Sterling

Right- I just read that a team used to race with the timing like that (I don't remember which thread. My newly piqued interest has me rereading all of the old material.)

But would'nt that be like keeping stock set-up but having 0* split in timing? And if that were a performance setting, then why is'nt everyone suggesting that from the get-go?

Also, if you just found out that there's enough room to put two pickups @ 90* apart, then that means that a pickup could simply be added to the existing trailing advance bracket to direct fire the trailing with a shaved reluctor.

Then the question is will the shaved reluctor give the desired spark for the leading. Since the reluctor has two parts shaved (I assume it now has two appendages @ 180* apart), we would get leading direct-fire, but no wasted spark fire.

Do I have that right? Would we still need four ignitors and four coils for "all-direct fire", or what?
And would the benifits of just plain old direct-fire on everything minus the wasted spark on the leading be not as good?
I'm very interested in this idea. I would REALLY love to get rid of the cap and rotor.

REVHED

Good questions.

Yeah, a lot of people, like Rice Racing for instance, recommend 0* trailing split but other's don't. That's why I'm asking.

It's not that simple. You can't shave the reluctor in the stock setup because the leading won't work correctly. Remember, with this new setup you would no longer have a leading and trailing pickup... they become the #1 and #2 rotor pickups.


You could use four ignitors and coils but I'd be more inclined to use 2nd gen. twin post coils. Not sure how much effect the wasted spark really has but I'd be willing to go without it if it means getting rid of the dizzy cap for good. Think how bloody cool that would look.

Sterling

Think that guy's got any pics on the web of that?

REVHED

Doubt it... it's in a magazine of mine. In fact that's what got me think about this as I'm pretty sure he using a very similar setup to what I'm suggesting. He has to be firing the leading and trailing together... don't see how else he could be running a 20B with three pickups. Unfortunately the article doens't go into further detail on the ignition system.

Sterling

Can we get some kind of diagram for this? I would like to try it.

Where else can I find out the advantages/disadvantages to having a 0* split? What does RiceRacing suggest as an advanced timing?

I'm heading to the Yaw Power site and then to Jeffs to try to get some more of a handle on this.

Seems to me trailing timing is set optimumly for eating the rest of the uncombusted mixture, and only as a side effect does it slightly increase power.
Do you know of any other Wankle engines where the plugs are located differently - set at optimum positions in the chamber specifically for performance gains? (IE-racing engines)

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Speaking of Wankel engines, yes the one and two rotor Wankel engines have only one plug per rotor housing in the optimal position. I'm not sure if both plugs (on a two rotor engine) fire at the same time. Maybe not if the 'optimal' postion is right where the apex seal would be at 180* after top dead center. To get an idea, think of a single plug right in between both plugs on a Mazda rotor housing. Leading is low enough to use wasted spark, but Trailing is above the apex seal and therefor ignites the incoming AF mixture.

About the 0º L/T split and single fire on Leading, you're right that it wouldn't burn as much AF mixture as your current setup (he's still running DLIDFIS, I think).

I've got a pickup backing plate out and ready to mess with. In order to get the pickups at 90º, they need to be pushed together quite tightly. I'm not sure if having them so close will affect the magnetism in a running car. Heh, it's warm outside and stuff, so I think I might try this. (I'm not gonna let this one slip by me like I did with DLIDFIS where it took me like six months to install it after I had first hooked it up :roll.

Yes, the reluctor will need to be shaved so only two tips are sticking out. I'm thinking the two to keep are the ones that line up with the rollpin and the flat spot on the shaft (it points to rotor #1 afterall). But then again, it all depends on where your #1 pickup is.

The cooler thing to do would be to stack reluctors and pickups in the dizzy for wasted spark direct fire on Leading and single spark direct fire on Trailing.

I still haven't found that chopped rotor. Oh well, it doesn't really matter anymore

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I just checked my pickups and they can't get close enough to be 90º I'm affraid.

However, if one is removed and flipped over, it's no problem!

Just drill out the copper rivets and flip it 180º and reattatch it to the metal thing. I've done a little testing on a flipped pickup and it still flashed the LED I was using. Not scientific, but it still worked.

I'm not sure what kind of fasteners to use to reattatch to pickups, but maybe they should be non-magentic like the copper rivets?

Sterling

That's what I wanted to do in the first place in order to eliminate the cap. But stacking pickups would be difficult, especially trying to keep the advance mechanism. That's why I was hoping we could untilize three pickups;

One is for the leading, and could still be set up for wasted spark mode direct fire. It goes to two ignitors - each to there own coil.

The other two pickups operate seperate trailing ignitors.

But, is there a component that works like the transistor inside the ignitor does, that will alternately oscilate from one set of leads to another?
In otherwords, a components that would recieve the impulses from the pickup, and alternate which ignitor gets the signal...One ignitor for each of the trailing coils?
This way, only one pickup is necessary for the trailing.

Obviously, I'm describing a totally electronic distribution, but this component that I describe must exist in some fashon. (Ya know...Hoping to go to the local Radio Shack and just pick one up!)

This would be a very low voltage component, too, as it only seperates and alternately dispenses the pulses generated by the pickups. The ignitors still handle all the "heavy voltage" switching.

I'm not understanding how many pulses are being sent every engine rotation. But the reluctor would'nt have to be shaved...If there's still a problem with "twice too many trailing pulses" , then the alternately dispensed trailing pickup signal can be further halved again by the addition of two more of these components - one at each recieving side of the original splitter.
(So then three of these "alternating transistors" would then be needed.)
Anyone getting any of this?

Hey what a great idea...
I think I just invented the MS-******-D box!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

There is something like that which is used on modern FI cars. It uses a Hall effect sensor that has as many magnets as there are cylinders. There is also a second Hall effect sensor with only a single magnet. This one is for telling the ECU when to fire the #1 cylinder. It has to spin around untill it crosses the sensor. That's why it takes quite a long time to crank some of the newer engines before they'll fire up; it's because the ECU will not start firing plugs untill this 'trigger' signal is recieved (the dizzy or CAS spins at 50% of crankshaft speed, so if it was 1º after the sensor, well, you know rRrRrRrR).

Maybe we could do some sort of mod to a Mazda dizzy that would tell a small low voltage component when to start firing the Trailing plugs, so the spark begins going to the proper plug first instead of being 180º out (that would be a bad day if that happened! hehehe).

By the way, a stock two rotor engine fires the Trailing coil twice per revolution which is the same as the coil in a four boinger. That's why a tach set to 4cyl mode works on the Trailing coil of a rotary. Leading is the same, even with DLIDFIS because it too fires each coil twice per revolution, but I prefer to keep the tach on the Trailing.