wankel=awesome

Hey all, you may have read about my GSL being made a 16 year old's toy recently, and Im starting to turn the gears in my head about what Im gonna do with it if the body and interior can be saved. Understand that my project is still a couple months off, but I want to have a clear idea and feedback from the community to make sure I have reasonable (possible) plans.

As you know, I really want a widebody.... Im thinking I wanna do the IMSA replica you can buy from BDA. It says in the catalog that its for 79-80, but could it be that hard to fit it to an FB??

Im using DanSYoungs CCW wheel idea, (awesome) and possibly similar fitment.

I want to run an FC front subrame and 5 lug spindles, T-II brakes etc.

I want the GSP 8.8 torque arm rear and also T-II brakes.

For the motorvation, I am plucking a 6 port renesis for 900 bucks, sans 6 speed, which is okay since I want the T-II five speed.

As far as interior it will likely be custom SA-ish with satellite radio, Ipod, and NAV.
I am thinking about running the stock gauge cluster, but im not sure, and the interior will be the last part of the build anyways.

It will be Sparkling Black Mica, and that interior will stay red.

I WANTAC and heat, but Im not sure if its possible to retain it with the swap.

Thats it in a nutshell, not too complex, but supercool. The engine will likely not be modified in any other way except the tune (Haltech RE), But one of my biggest concerns is the exhaust. I want it to be relatively quiet... I dont know if its possible, but thats at least what I want.

Im not worried about power output, my 105-ish hp 12A motivated my car just fine.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Flaming?

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

Thats a lot of time and $$$ you want there. Good luck.

Wrong section, should be in the 1st Gen non tech or lounge.

wankel=awesome

I know, I posted it there, but it disappeared after I posted it. After I logged out and then back in it was here....

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

Get the GTU or GTO widebody kit from Mariah. Better quality than BD. Also, expect there to be a TON of 'glass work to get it solid and looking right. Check out Trochoid's build thread to see how much work you're in for.

Besides that, looks like an awesome build. You won't need the Granny's 8.8 rear end for the Renesis. Directfreak said a year or two ago that's basically the only thing he'd change from his original build, as it's way too heavy and saps too much power. Source yourself a big bearing GSL/GSL-SE rear end, get the Moser (sp?) 5-lug axles from Billy, and be done with it.

Also, go with the ReSpeed R&P kit. It'll be much more professional-looking than the FC subframe, and I'm sure Billy can hook you up with mounts for the RENESIS for a little extra $$.

wankel=awesome

Well, the reason I want the 8.8 is because of the rear gear selection and serviceability if something goes wrong. (Prolly wont) And, if I decide to go to higher than stock power levels in the future. Also I like the fact that its torque arm... Ive heard that its suspension geometry is also superior to the 4 link SE rear.

One more thing, local race enthusiasts run shops for actually modding 8.8's to have a degree or two of negative camber (NOT impossible, read Car crafts "Max Effort" build)


And as for the subframe, I was looking into it because of the recent info I read about it giving better front suspension geometry. But I guess billy would be a good and simpler way to go..... I also want 15:1 steering

OneRotor

iTrader: (3)

Highest I've ever heard for stock rear ends is between 1.5* and 2*. The people who attain those levels of camber eat wheel bearings left and right, but it's worth it to them for the added traction.

If you're worried about the "superior" suspension geometry, go with a panhard bar/3 link setup.

I'd suggest using a stock rear-end until you break it. Also, if you get in as a Mazdaspeed member, they have tons of options for gearing for the factory rear end (plus, there is a thread in here about putting the chunk out of a Kia w/ a 4.88 and a limited slip into the factory rear end housing).

One thing you're also not factoring into the equation is that when you mount the 2nd gen subframe, you have to trim the front fenders a little bit. It's not a perfect bolt-in system.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

I see a lot of weight being added, without any real additional power. If it looks fast, it should at least get out of its own way. You don't want the soccer mom in the Kia blowing by you. I would rethink the whole renesis thing, and just swap a nice, simple TII engine.

The Respeed axles should be plenty for the power output you are planning (and beyond) - don't waste time/money on a GSP rear.

You really should check out Billys (Respeed) widebody SA - sounds like something you would want to aim for, and muuuuuuch simpler than Dan's Monster setup.

wankel=awesome

^^^^ See? good feedback! I have actually decided that I may stick with the stock front end+R&P+Coilovers+camber plates+turn in spacers. Poly bushings as well.

As for the rear, I think .5 degrees negative camber would do it on the rear.

But I actually want lower gearing for it. Im not worried about crazy acceleration, I want decent fuel economy. I was looking to get the engine down to a pretty low engine speed at 55, (at least lower than the rx8).

That being said, im not too sure about the TII now, as I dont know its ratios. are the tII ratios similar to the 12A tranny? Cause I personally hate its gearing. 3500 rpms at 55 burns a lot of gas.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

You can use a 2nd Gen NA Tranny for better highway gearing as well.

wankel=awesome

Well.... It looks like the renesis has better economy, but shouldnt it have close to twice the power that my old 12A had??

And my 900 buck reni is a bargain compared to almost any TII. Given it has 44k miles on it.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

What computer are you planning to run on the Renesis? AFAIK,
the stock computer requires a boatload of RX-8 sensors, factory gauges, and other wiring that is very much intertwined with the RX-8 in general. I personally only know of one SA (in Japan) that has successfully done that swap - it's all new territory over here.

If you use an aftermarket ECU - then you will likely lose much, (if not all) of the Renesis's advantages - including fuel economy and power. The 6 port Renesis has a very complex intake system with moving actuators that are best kept stock. If you're planning to use a 4 port Renesis (from an Auto) - then that is garbage.

I just hate to see you throw away good money after bad for mediocre results at best. There is a reason people do turbo FB's -it works, and it's fun as hell!

If you insist on N/A - there are people on this very forum with over 180 WHEEL HP on Naturally Aspirated 13B's. The Renesis in it's current state of development is nothing special.

wankel=awesome

The ecu will be a haltech Power commander RE. It supports the all of the renesis functions if I understand correctly. It is a 6 port, and the RE haltech supposedly will work with said actuators.

Also, understand that this is no race car... I just want to put my FB back on the road for a couple hundred thousand more miles and get good gas mileage doing it. (reliable)

I do want good racing derived stuff for durability, but things like spring rates would likely stay as close to stock as possible, with some firmer shocks. Im gunning for a performance alignment to give the car a more modern car feel, and to match the large wheels and tires I want.

It stands to reason that if the RX8 can be moderately fast stock (fast enough for me) with the factory overly rich ecu tune (according to some of rotarygods old posts; love that guy), a restrictive exhaust and a heavier chassis, that my 7 would be a more than adequate cruiser.

But thats just it. I want a tame DD thats not ridiculous, or running a whole bunch of boost. I agree, the real rotary power is turbo rotary, but ill take a civil NA engine.

I have looked into S5 6 port NA's making good power, but a 6k price tag is pretty steep for 200 hp. (pineapple racing)

BTW, thank you for the input. I was rather surprised more people werent interested in educating me.

Sigh.... I really feel like the rotor is letting me down, lol.

But with tuning I do hope to break 200 rwhp with my reni. Maybe I ask too much

PS: I dont know if its true, but a guy on nopistons.com claims to have done it. he said that the oil pan didnt need modified, and that the hardest part was maing the ecu work. Since then haltech came out with their RE specific ecu, so I hope that that problem will be solved.

broke7

iTrader: (1)

Good luck You just better have plenty of $$$.

wankel=awesome

Well, I believe virtually any swap/power making undertaking with an rx7 costs a lot of money. And it absolutely does.

But, its a long term project. It probably wouldnt be finished this month 2 years from now.

I can understand why people drop other engines into these for this reason.

But I would rather donate my FB to the EPA so they could closely study the rotarys horrible attitude towards the environment than run it with a domestic 8 cyl underhood.

DallasFC1

iTrader: (2)

Well, I have toyed with the idea of throwing a Renesis 6port into my FB. However, after doing plenty of research and looking, I decided it just would be cost prohibitive. Honestly, throwing upwards of $14k into a car to gain at best 120ish ponies, is retarded. You have to remember there is a lot of fab work to shoehorn a Renesis into an FB. Not to mention suspension work, etc. etc. You sound like you have a complete resto-mod situation on your hands. Now if you are made of money go for it (hey and send me a check or something over here, I'm starving!!!).

My alternate plan (maybe you will like it better) is this:
13b Street Ported with a Rotrex supercharger on it. (go look up the Rotrex supercharger, as a matter of fact someone is putting one in their FB now go search in 1st gen tech section).
That setup, properly tuned, should wield 200+HP, mated with my S4 N/A 5spd. transmission with the 12A endhousing on it, should have decent gas mileage. Remember the Rotary engine is NOT BY ANY MEANS "FUEL EFFICIENT". You want MPG, go get a beater honda to daily drive **(However, the hydrogen powered rotary engine mazda is playing with now is super cool and looks to promise mpgs of 35+)**

As far as the rear end, whoever said to run out and get a GSL-SE rear end with the 5 axles is on the money. Remember, rotary engines are not torqey.

But honestly, to each his own. If you want something that looks FAST and I can smoke on my 21speed bike, so be it Do what makes ya happy bro!

Good luck sounds like you got fun times ahead of you.

MountainScreamer

For the engine, is it pulled from a wrecked car? I know that the earlier ones had omp problems, making them fail prematurely. Just make sure you arent getting one that's on its last legs.
Also, if you were to go with stock front end, could you just swap front covers with the renesis to put it in? I honestly dont know, thats for someone with more knowledge than I...

Otherwise, I would say if you were able to control the renesis properly with the haltech and mount it with minimal headaches it would be a really cool idea.

Im for keeping the stock rear end. Since you aren't racing the car and want to keep it relatively tame there is no need for an 8.8. All that is strictly drag racing or high horsepower applications, i.e. built 20b
You can however get the gforce panhard bar and 3 link if you so desire. That coupled with some illuminas and some adjustable spring perches will do you nicely.
I recommend spring perches simply for the fact that you will probably want to adjust the ride height when you first set it down on the ground, and also if you ever change wheels and want it different.

The front end can be upgraded with RE-Speed parts to do quite well. I had the pleasure of driving Billys widebody before he sold it and I was amazed at how it handled.

I will say try to keep the car as light a possible! If you're lighter you wont need as much horsepower. (8.8+2nd gen subframe= alot more weight)

So I would keep the rear suspension plus panhard/tri-link, front with TII brakes and R&P steering conversion from RE-Speed, and if you can do it, swap front covers with the renesis to mount it in the stock 12a location. That mated with a TII tranny and you should have quite a fun little car! Also, all 2nd gen trannys have a longer 5th gear so you will have lower cruising rpms.

If you cant get the engine right, just go with a stock S5 TII. That would meet your power requirements and wouldn't be hard at all with all the documentation on the forum.

Either way, best of luck!

wankel=awesome

Well, im actually feeling pretty defeated here... but as for the front cover thing, it ill physically bolt up, but the overall length of the engine would require some fab work to make the mounts fit. My 12A is much shorter than the reni.

Okay, so.... Plans for the engine have halted. I will hold on to it for now, but theres no telling why everyone thinks a 6 port renesis would be slow.... Rx8's do over 130 mph in stock form easily. Try passing that with a 21 speed bike.

So I was thinking, and what If I did a stockport TII?? It seems the smaller intake port would be easier on gas when off boost while cruising. Maybe im wrong??

And as for the "rotary's are not fuel effecient" statement, know that I was able to squeeze 26 MPG out of a 4.6 V8 in my 4000 pound grand marquis. It was totally in the tune and gearing. Everytime I see a gas guzzler rotary, its ported, carbed, and has crazy-sauce 4.88 gearing that sets it up for 5k rpms cruising in fifth. Thats just stupid. I believe if someone could gear it right and resist the urge to port, that it might be possible.

theNeanderthol

iTrader: (1)

You are totally right, wankel=awesome. When people bring up a project with less than 300 HP planned, everyone asks why. We have hundreds of devils advocates on the forum. Take the good advice here, then do what you want. A member named flyboy was considering putting a v8 in his fb, and many forum members were pushing him to use a renesis engine for the all the reasons you just mentioned, ha ha!

I will say, however, that once you get a feel for rotary power you start to crave more. And the non-renesis engines are easier to make big power with. Most people are looking out for you, cause they figure once you're done with the project you'll want more power (and they are probably right). But if you like the renesis, do it. They are certainly easier to quiet down than other rotaries.

MountainScreamer

As far as gas mileage, I would be happy with around 20. I think 26 is really pushing it... Mazda lists the new rx8 as having 22 highway and 16 city.
I cant say for sure though since all I have is a crazy ported carbed rotary

Dont get me wrong about the renesis, if you really want it just do it! Like I said, it would be a really cool project and pretty unique.

The plus of a TII is you can keep it stock for as long as you want, but like Neanderthol said, you will probably want more. From the TII base you can expand MUCH easier than the renesis.

In this case, you could do the subframe swap, and have stock motor mounts.
here is a good thread with some useful information on a subframe/2nd gen swap.
https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/progress-gathering-painting-parts-739721/

broke7

iTrader: (1)

Getting good gas mileage out of a rotary is easy. You just stay out of the gas. My car gets 18 on the highway. About 12 is the norm because I drive it like I stole it.