djmickyg

a friend has a Toyota Twin Cam 16 seca with a 4AG-E
and i have a S1 with a S3 enigine and S2 Carby

the other night we had our first drag, and the was even the whole way,
he got slightly a better take off , but as sooon as i hit 2nd i pulled infront by half a nose then it evened out agian untill the end.

if you look at the stats of both engine they are virtualy the same..

they both red line at 7,000

the rx7 has has 77kw, mine has extractors and welded up secondaries so it might be at say 80, the 4age has 88, but the rx7 peek power comes in at 6 or so and the 4age's is at about 5 so that makes up for that

the 4age has 150 Nm of torque and and the rx7 has 140 Nm, the rx7 will come in harder at the start which will also help make up for the less 8kw of power,

and both cars weight about 1 tone.

anyone else draged one of these?
even the corolla Sx and Gti, but they got 100Kw but the cars weighs 1,200

Project84

nice sig

mperformance

I race 4AGEs all the time. They are great engines but very expensive to mod to get over 180hp.

These are found also in the toyota corollas FX and mr2...the old ones.

The engines are not similar in terms of power. The 4AGEs have very peaky power bands and short lived, you have to rev them to get going. The 12a is superior in all sense to it. The advantage of the 4AGE is their reliability and parts availability. Again it's not a cheap engine to mod. The best engine is the 20valve one and that one comes with 155hp stock...comes with nice pistons and ITBs.

There is a nice starlet running a 4AGE engine which I plan to race, there is no way I will win because of the power to weight ratio that car has, the engine has agressive cams and it's nicely tuned, also the starlet is RWD and launches hard from the hole, only advantage I got is that I can keep my revs higher than it.

I don't know what you got under your hood but make sure you race those cars having a header and nice exhaust in your rex, should not have any problem with stock 4AGEs

Keaponlaffen

For the non-metric inclined people on the forum (most of us, even the canadians), You might perhaps want to find a metric to imperial convertor and spit out some HorsePower and Ft-lb numbers for power and torque...

Jeff

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

well, i'm unsure what to make off your thread because i think you guys get the "nice" 4AG's over there ... the 20V versions, right?

the 4AG's that we have here are pretty good when you hotrod them, but most people that i know to mess with them, are either too poor of too cheap to pump them up enough to pose a SERIOUS threat to a 12A.

i have a friend with a FX-16 GTS and Corolla (AE86) GTS that worked the hell out of his cars, and he can beat up on slightly modded 12A's, but the streetports give him hell

REVHED

Only the 16V versions were ever sold here by Toyota but a lot of import 20V's and 4AGZE's(supercharged) have been brought here over the years and they're pretty easy to get. That makes one hell of a combination BTW... the 4AGZE block and supercharger combined with the 20V head.

Spieder

I thought 7's were a 1.2 to 1.4 ton car depending upon model year.

As far as I know, the 12A hits max torque at 4k rpm and max HP at 6k (unmodified with Nikki Carb).

The conversion is linear:

1 hp = 746 Watts
1 Btu*hr-1 = 0.293 Watts

Spieder

Oh by the way, the peak HP and torqie are meaningless. It's the area under the curve that moves you. Rotaries develop HP (and torgue) more efficiently than piston engines do. The reason that our little 100 HP cars can keep up with 120HP to 130 HP other's is that the total area (available work) is so much greater. For example (the only one I remember) when the RX-7's were hitting 100 HP at 6k, the dodge Stealths were on the down side of their power band below 100.

I can't find any curves to post, but I keep looking.

Flatblackmagic

I have both the 12a and the 20v 4age in my 1991 celica and I must say that it's an awesome motor. I purchased the ae111 motor with a six speed, and individual throttle bodies. I have spent about six months getting it ready to put it in in place of the custom turbo and built 4afe that I had in there. I've built it with toda cams, custom camgears in titanium made by myself, made a custom 4-2-1 header with 2 1/8 in primaries, race ported and polished the head, o-ringed the block, titanium valves-springs-retainers, all for under $700 + the motor. This motor is supposed to make near 150 at the wheels stock, and I have it pushing just a hair over 205. It also has a great midrange. I think that I might stroke it next to 1.8 litres and then move to bigger itbs.

But I disagree that it is expensive to modify and i think that both the 12a and 4age are great motors, both just need uncorked

REVHED

Sounds like a sweet project. Gotta love the sound of the 20V with quad throttle bodies eh?

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

sounds like a sweet project. you definitely get an A for originality. most people just do the standard 3SGE or 3SGTE upgrade. just curious why you ditched the turbo got any pics?

Edit: just noticed that me and revhed opened with the same line, hehehehe

mperformance

flatblackmagic well I had the persception that the toyota 4AGE engines got really expensive after 180hp...I have a bunch of friends that race those engines and they tell me TRD and Toda are just jacking up their prices like crazy.

I know a freaking LSD for an MR2 is like over $700 and a set of high comp pistons can go over $1k. WTF?!!! anyhow I find that expensive and to prove that a friend of mine has every single mod available done to his 4AGE (US version) while keeping the stock EFI system and stock block. His reprogrammed PCM (which BTW was like $800 just on that), HKS this and that and I spank him with my stock port. He has spent over 4k in his car not including the cost of it, and it is slow...It is sad to say that but I just don't think I would spend all that money on that engine.

Now the 20V sounds like a much better platform nowdays, it's totally different from the regular 4AGE like day and night. I'm happy you got that engine...it's got some mean agressive power. Another guy just swapped a 20V which I hear comes with forged pistons into an 87 mr2 and that car is just sick, and like you said it comes with 150hp at the wheels stock. The engine is no longer stock and he is also spraying a dry shot of 50hp and he is having a blast spanking 13s turbos.

Regular 4AGEs are great engines but to squeeze the amount of power that I'm happy with is just not cost effective. One thing though...those engine sure can take a beating, they last forever.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

don't underestimate those engines! is your friend the one with the MR2 that you mentioned or is it in some other chassis. either way, i really don't think those cars [Corolla, FX-16, and MR2 (AW11)] are great drag racing cars, so i believe you could still spank one with a stock port.

but the one thing i would like to comment on your friend's car, from your description, is this ... the stock EFI system on those cars are probably THE biggest power hindrance. the injectors are pitiful and the runners are nominal at best! my friend threw some Mikuni's on his FX-16, and that car is a frickin' animal! (but like i said, some streetports have beat him ) my point is, anything your friend did to that engine is going to have it's benefit masked by the stock EFI - just an observation.

anyway ... flatblackmagic, i'd still like to know if you've got pics!

mperformance

exactly diabolical1...same thing I tell him. Those engines the earlier 4AGEs have a flap type air flow meter which is terrible. the injectors are crap and they also have some type of butterfly system to tune the ports which is majorily restrictive. He can't ditch the EFI because he is into it deep now. His goal is to make this thing haul *** still keeping the EFI, I just don't see it happening any time in this lifetime the way he is approaching his project.

Everybody else is running 44PHH mikunis, 48DCOE webers and stroking these engines to 1.8. He is just going the wrong way (the big time money I much have rather spent on a 20V or a turbo II engine)...then again he has spent a shitload of money so I respect his project. Still my stock port smokes the crap out of his car, which to me is sad.

I do like toyotas just not poorly modded ones, heck just like I told him..."spend the money on the right things not just spend to say you have spent"..."worst thing that can happen is that my 85 RX which I just began modding spanks the living **** out of your mr2"

...which I already did...

jayroc

I'm not even sure if AE86s are around here. Did they use the same chassis/motor as celicas of the same period? I've seen several of those around...
There's an anime series called Initial D where they race a 4age-101 20v version. I'm thinkin it runs around 240hp up around 11k. Sounds mean, too. You know, as a side note, I wonder why FBs/SAs aren't popular for drift cars... They're pretty light and the GSLs got LSD and they're cheap. hmmm

ioTus

iTrader: (5)

Since you've metnioned it, what is a "drift" car???

jayroc

A drift car, you know, a car you go drifting in. See this site for more info.

http://www.driftsession.com/gallerie...wendell240.jpg

The technique section has some good info.

jayroc

Another, BTW. What the convert from PS to HP. Is it pretty close to 1-1? And what does PS stand for anyway?

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PaulFitzwarryne

Its really sad when we get concerned whether a Gen 1 can can outdrag a Corolla.

If you want a Corolla to race against, try the latest WRC which has the same engine as the turbocharged Celica GT, it gives very serious power when compared with the little 1.6 litre 4AGE.

djmickyg

also check this good page out aboyt drifting.

driftworks.org

DJ Rotor

hey, a drifting page I didn't know about - kewl

FWIW I'm planning to build my FB into a mean driftin machine - I'll be the first in this area for sure! not that that would take much

J

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

as far as the chassis' are concerned, NO, the Celica and Corolla are two completely different cars - the Corolla's were rear-drive up until '87, and by then the Celica's had been raped and turned to front-drive for over a year. i'm positive about this part.
now this part is just off the top of my head, so i may stand corrected. the best thing i would suggest is to research it yourself, that way if i'm wrong, you won't be led astray. the Celica "ST" (base model) did use a variant of the 4A - engine (just not sure if it was the "F"-head or "G"-head) all the other Celicas used the 3S-based motors.


Paul,
I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I admit, I've seen some pretty lethal Corollas, but the ones we had to watch out for were all pretty heavily modded (i.e. they all "needed" drag racing tires, at least - and most of them were from the 80-83 vintage)
You're right about that WRC Corolla, I must admit I don't have the specs on them, but the ones that really had me smitten were the Corolla/Starlets from the late 90's. To this day, I would love to import one and show these Civic-Boy racers a thing or two ...

1

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

damn, double post ... i hate this computer sometimes!