There is no such thing as typical operating pressures in A/C, especially MVAC. This is caused by misunderstanding the physics involved. See the temperature pressure chart posted on an earlier page? Pressure on both the high and low side is totally dependent on the temperatures in the system (and vice versa) and is also influenced by the air temperatures outside and inside.

It's *complicated*. This is why now days, most professionals charge automobiles by weight. If the system is partially full, they recover the remaining refrigerant and recharge by weight.


Should not be too much problem. Just don't leave a couple of oz of mineral, then add the full ester 6 oz and expect the cooling to be totally up to snuff. Too much total oil will displace refrigerant capacity. You can get most of the oil out of the system at this point by replacing the receiver-drier. The mineral oil will tend to collect in that canister and will not move around in the system containing R152a (or 134a either.

The word of the day is miscible. That's Miscible.

 

here is 7dust's car!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH8MSWokFC0

 

I have a question about that, looking up the MSDS of both the R134 has a lower auto ignition than the ES12A by a big number over half.

http://www.autorefrigerants.us/ESMSDS.htm
http://www.refrigerants.com/msds/r134a.pdf

As for the legality, do you supposed that could be due to Dupont cornering the market on R134 and having the money to protect it? There was a study done to see just what would happen if the entire contents of your AC suddenly leaked into your compartment while smoking with the HC...nothing happened.

http://futeck.com/BWTRefridgerant.htm

Of course that could be biased as they are selling the stuff but it does bring up good points.

I live in Miami 95f with 85% humidity, my AC works great even on 1 I can feel it and it is cold, when cruising the highway I won't put it higher than 3 and even then my fingers will become numb if it is on to long. I am going to try the industrial stuff soon but right now I don't want to mess with it. I am going to take the R134 out of my Mustang and put the industrial in that one also because on a hot day the 134 just does not cut it.

Today is a cold day for us

86f
72% humidity
feels like 100f

This is in an FD, I have no experience with the FC in this area.

Another good thing with the ES12a regular stuff is you don't need to pull vacuum, for those without the tools it is easily done by yourself.

Edit: wanted to make a comment about the last part I bolded, I get temperatures of around 40f from my vents. When I first put it in I was getting mid 50's, after it settled I was hitting low 40s.

 

^^so does the system work better after it "settles down"?

Also, where do you get this ES12a and how much does it cost?

The duster in 7dust's car seemed to work marginally well... about the same as 134a, but it could have had something to do with the kink in between the compressor and condenser.

Scott, post a pic of that kink when you get home.

 

http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm is where I got it from but I found this one, I like the setup better.
http://www.es-refrigerants.com/produ...rant&Trying=ON

I bought the $30 recharge kit, comes with o-ring conditioner and 2 cans of es12-a, as well as fittings if you are still set for R12 and the filler hose.

I am going to get some industrial soon but the stuff is really cheap.

 

No it doesn't. It doesn't work worth a crap. Been there done that. Multiple cars, multiple times, different brands. I'm pretty damn good at this MVAC thing. I conversed with customer service at Envirosafe over the course of two summers. Every time the stuff didn't work, it was because I did something wrong. I over charged, I undercharged, I charged into a vacuum, I *didn't* charge into a vacuum. My A/C system was no good, I didn't give it time to 'settle down', maybe my car is one of those cars that 'needed the Industrial ES12a etc etc.

They will also won't/can't tell you *what* you need to have in the system to prevent a vacuum. Air? Low pressure propane? Left over R12? Leftover R134a?

I still have that nasty pine stink in two different cars. It's bullshit.

 

There are a few of us with FDs that have had amazing results with the stuff, as well as many people with other cars. Some people it seems to work really well others it does not, did you replace everything in your car? did it work with regular R134 or R12 or any other? What are your vent temps?

I have had both R134 and es12a in my system and using a digital and analog thermometer the es12a came out about 10 degrees colder in very hot and humid weather.

 

What do you guys not understand about the ES12 stuff? It is FUEL. It BURNS. It sustains flame. It explodes.Make your own video. Try to burn R134a. Post it up. You can't make R134a burn. It is NON-FLAMMABLE. I'll paypal you $100 if you can make R134a burn at atmospheric pressure.

Now, as to your statement about the video made? I have the video link. It is now listed under 'Comedy' on Youtube. It was made as a 'Safety Demonstration' by Dr. Ian McClain-Cross. He is/was an Australian professor at the University of South Wales. He is Ground Zero, THE source of all the bullshit regarding propane refrigerants for use in cars. All of the bullshit on ES, Envirosafe etc sites is copy pasted from his 'research' publicity releases. He had a run of about 10 years before he finally cooked his own goose. BTW, I was a big fan in those days.

The video is of a public demonstration Dr. made to prove the safety of the 'refrigerant' for auto use. In the video, the good Dr. releases the 'refrigerant' into the car, he then lights a match. If you just want to see the explosion, go to 4:15 and watch. There is also an interesting vignette taken at the emergency room that follows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0K1WPCWm2k

The Dr. was subsequently forced into retirement, prosecuted and most of his 'research' papers were taken down from the internet.

Guys, this is a very serious deal.


If you have a system that is truly working efficiently and effectively in a high temperature/humidity environment, then you are a very rare person. You should start your own thread and teach the rest of us how to achieve this result-*after* you make your own safety videos.

 

BTW, I still have a half case of R12. If you want to see how your FD should cool, you could pay me to correctly charge it with R12.

Seriously, I must say that the cars I have unsuccessfully used ES12a in were also not suitable for 134a conversion due to condenser capacity. That was my only reason for trying the crap. Possibly if the car has sufficient condenser capacity, the car is more capable of cooling with the crap?

Was your FD originally an R134a car? That would be any 1994+ FD.

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...18#post8233918

 

like how the temp and clock readouts are exacty the same in the first pic.
And is the top temp for ambient inside the car? or is there another sensor for OAT?

 

Top number is ambient inside temp. It's quite a bit warmer up on the dash than on the console. Bottom number is the vent temp.

 

Decided to try this out

2 10oz cans of Dust Destroyer, will see what the results are tomorrow! 102F in Riverside

 

I bought a vacuum pump from napa for like $60. It has no moving parts but needs a big air compressor to work properly. I tried it out the other day with my dual stage 60 gal air compressor and it pulled the a/c system down to 30mmhg, and the compressor was probably at 50% duty cycle.
https://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...05_0064419777#

 

this is why it's a difficult comparison. obviously your car was having other issues, i have done a number of conversions driving the same areas that blew ice cold with R134a.

some cars like it, some tolerate it and some hate it. it's based on the compressor mainly in my experience and not the condenser core. the rest of the system has to be functionally checked as well, an inoperative auxiuliary fan for example or weak thermofan can have huge negative affects on function, as well as crap in the oil cooler duct covering half of your condenser core.

i've also ran R134a in the same vehicles at varying altitudes and now with random humidity factor, it still works ok but not as well as R12. all with ambient temperatures near 110*F..

there is however nothing wrong with a refrigerant that works better than R134a

but i am going to say that any system that is being converted properly needs to be working properly first before comparisons made.

 

1) This has already been covered
2) That pump can't produce enough vacuum to properly remove the moisture from the A/C system
3) 30mmHg can't possibly be right, even 300mmHg wouldn't be enough
4) You overpaid, those pumps are worth ~1/3 of that at harbor freight

 

even though inadequate they generally are better than nothing for getting the air out of the system to service it properly.

the only reason you really need to remove the water from the system is if you have had the system totally open to atmosphere for more than a short period of time. you don't need a dramatic vacuum to evacuate the system to prepare it for a proper full charge of refrigerant.

i do believe he was referring to 30"Hg by the way... which my 150psi supply can pull down to about 27-28"Hg with the same type of pump which is very nearly adequate. no one is going to go out and buy a $300 electric vacuum pump to perhaps do the job only slightly better. not everyone has a kragen or autozone nearby and a decent compressor will work the mechanical air over port vacuum pumps ok.



while i think it is great to have information on alternatives, of which i will try this one too because R134a is overpriced and getting more overpriced daily, things should not be taken out of perspective due to improperly functioning systems.

i do not know though, perhaps i am just blessed with common sense to check everything and have had good results. the largest bonus to this is colder temps at smaller price tag, even R134a is costing nearly $50 a charge when just 5 years ago it was about $20(even worse in california because now they are putting R134a into recyclable sealed cans which require a special adapter and $10 core for each can! i believe they are trying to make it more cost effective to have the systems professionally serviced because it is cheaper to spend $50 at a shop than $50 plus tax and $20 core return to do it yourself.).

 

Oops I meant 30" Hg (this is approximate of course) and my compressor cuts off at 175 psi btw. I don't like harbor freight, and will pay more for Napa tools on most days. I am looking forward to experimenting with r152a and this thread has been very interesting.

 

YEP. UGGGHHHH I Am so sick and tired of the EPA's BS on this stuff. I don't want to be hot and I can 't afford a new car every 5 years. It's getting stupid ridiculous.

The worst part of it is the fact that it ends up becoming a TAX on poor people.

 

everything follows the price of oil. i can't find any support as to why coolant and air conditioning refrigerant have doubled as well in cost over the past 5 years.. actually more with R134a, it was $3.99 for a 12oz can '05-06. R12 has turned into liquid gold at about $75-100 per 16oz. price was driven up in conjunction with EPA standards so that people would use consumables more wisely, except nature is out of our personal control. a/c lines rupture for no good reason for example, yet you pay additional for it.

 

I stopped by office depot on my way home and picked up a 3 pack of duster for $18.XX

 

Hey Thanks for posting all this jackhild59

 

Umm, Minnesota and the midwest are just as taxing on A/C systems as the rest of the country lol. In some respects (latent capacity) even more so than the southwest. We dont get to cheat with evaporative cooling like those in AZ...

So im not sure i would discount input from those of us that live here (and design A/C systems here)....

Mid 90s and approaching 100 were not uncommon this summer nor past summers. Plus, we have fairly common summer high dew points in the low to mid 80s (official record set at MSP this summer). Basically similar to dew points in the south east coastal areas...

Not that i disagree with your recommendations, but lets not marginalize experts because of where they live and your misconceptions of said locations...

 

Not that it is a competition to see who has the shittiest weather, but this made me laugh. We just set the record of 70 consecutive days for 100 degree temps, but they do win the award for annoying accents.

 

Two words "ice water"

 

And those that understand refrigeration cycles know that humidity is half the battle. A standard (no evaporative aids such as is the case with all automotive A/C) A/C system operating in AZ at 120 deg dry bulb (a common summer high temp) will often NOT have its capacity taxed as much as those in sub 100 temps with high dry bulbs....turns out pulling water out of air takes a lot of energy...

In any case not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out that people who hang their hats on dry bulb temps as the primary factor in the sizing and capacities of A/C systems are going to find out they never have enough cooling...thus A/C systems are taxed by far more than straight air temps...

A lot of factors go into it, but with very basic and antiquated systems like automotive A/C the above holds true more often than not.

I will agree that we dont find ourselves maxing out A/C capacities for as MANY days as in the south...not even close...